How do we navigate the constant lying, when there is no longer an expectation that politicians or pundits will be honest? In this episode of “Can You Hear Me,” co-hosts Eileen Rochford and Rob Johnson will dive deep into numerous articles from Scientific American titled, “Truth vs Lies” as they break down the science of deception so that we can protect ourselves against it. Please listen to “When Lies are a Way of Life” right now.
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Rob Johnson [00:00:18] Hello again, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications.
Eileen Rochford [00:00:27] And I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the marketing and strategy firm The Harbinger Group. So when we first started this podcast about a year and a half ago, and on occasion since we took a close look and have continued to consider this issue of the art of lying, call it misinformation, disinformation, whatever it is, it is totally real, and it is here to stay, sadly. There recently, though, was this examination of the issues kind of wrapped up in lying and misinformation and disinformation in the publication Scientific American. And they called this special issue Truth Vs Lies. So this is a huge compilation of articles. You can also get it as an e-book or in our print version. If you still do that, who does.
Rob Johnson [00:01:21] Print! What?
Eileen Rochford [00:01:22] But I am totally fascinated, not only by the topic is, you know, I'm a communications expert. Right, but I'm also an information junkie. So I can can't wait to dive into this today and really examine all of the complexities of, essentially, lying.
Rob Johnson [00:01:43] Well, and the thing about it is, in preparation for this podcast, there's so much information in this Scientific American compilation of articles that it's like, which ones do we pay attention to? There's so much important information that's out there. And they take a look at it in such a detailed way. It was really difficult to say, okay, here are the things we're going to focus on. But I think we're focusing on some things that are very important. And I hope that you all who are listening would agree with that as well. So the latest phenomena, maybe you've heard of it. Maybe you know what it means. Perhaps you don't. When I first heard it, I didn't know what it was. I heard people use it all the time and I had no idea what it was. We're talking about gaslighting. That's when someone denies the reality that other people are experiencing. So this is where the manipulators of information try to get you to doubt your experiences and your thoughts and that sort of thing. If it's left unchecked, it's going to be very dangerous. So you just experienced something. You just saw something, you had thoughts that were your own. I mean, your thoughts are your own. And then they're like, "No, that didn't happen." Excuse me?
Eileen Rochford [00:02:51] I think you're describing the Trump presidency. Am I right?
Rob Johnson [00:02:56] Among other things, that was certainly honed during those four years. Yes.
Eileen Rochford [00:03:01] Yes, yes, it was. But yeah, we're experiencing gaslighting at an unprecedented rate right now. I will also use another example, climate deniers. That's a pretty good example of trying to gaslight. We are seeing the impacts of an overreliance on fossil fuels and the impact of human activity on the climate every day. Science is telling us every day we should be paying attention to this. There are facts galore on the topic. Yet we're being gaslighted by all kinds of different entities regularly, whether it be in textbooks, the news media, talk radio, you name it, that it's not happening and that it's completely a big lie. So that's another great example.
Rob Johnson [00:03:51] And gaslighting to me is such a great jumping off point to talk about really the bigger issue. It used to be if you had an opinion and I had an opinion and they didn't line up, I could disagree with you and say I disagree with you, Eileen. And now people are saying, to take it to another level here, I could present you facts and you're like, well, that's not true. And they could be facts, they could be research, they could be science. And people say, I disagree. And you're like, but those are the facts. So all of a sudden, the facts seem less relevant, and that's sad. And the way that people can manipulate all of this, it's really dangerous and it's really been perfected, I would say, in the last 4 to 6 years. It's really taken on a life of its own and it's not good. And just the political discourse is now so useless because I'm not working with that person, it doesn't matter what their facts are. It doesn't matter if they have the facts on their side, they're wrong. They are?
Eileen Rochford [00:05:02] I'll just mention, have you heard about the show Gaslight on Apple TV? Julia Roberts, Sean Penn. Okay, your homework for the weekend is to watch the show. And I guarantee when you start, you will not be able to stop watching. You will 100% binge consume this content. It is unreal. On so many levels. And literally, that's the best description because it is. It is aptly named. What she is experiencing during the Nixon presidency and that era and how it's all done to her and then present it to the outside world that she's nuts is truly the classic example of what gaslighting looks like when it's really happening to someone. It's a tragic, tragic story, but it's a story that I think we should all know, in my opinion. So I highly recommend checking that out if you want to kind of go down that rabbit hole of what gaslighting looks like and what it does when people are conducting that as a form of denial and mistruths, perpetuation of mistruths.
Rob Johnson [00:06:17] And what you're talking about is informing people, you're going to make your own decision, but at least you want people to have the facts in front of them. The facts being the undisputed truth - allegedly. And this is where we keep running into this problem, where it's like you didn't experience that. "Wait a minute. I just experienced that!" "No, you didn't." "What?" That to me is just in so many different forms. If it's in the corporate world, if it's in the political world, whatever the case may be, I just think that's a dangerous road to go down that old rabbit hole that you just mentioned. And as somebody that used to be in journalism and the truth mattered, I thought even though people would say, "oh, you guys are biased" or this or that, which, you know, we don't need to get into that today. But other than the fact that I always tried to be factual and truthful, that was my guiding principle. And now to see so many people just, not only do they not do it, they don't want to do it. They don't care about it.
Eileen Rochford [00:07:17] Mm hmm. Well, part of the name of the game today, and what I'm going to categorize as a public service announcement episode, is that we're going to raise awareness to what these things look like, these different aspects of misinformation, disinformation, gaslighting, lots of other things. So what we've done, we've just kind of given everybody homework, including you, Rob, keep an eye out for that one.
Rob Johnson [00:07:47] You said Julia Roberts and Sean Penn?
Eileen Rochford [00:07:48] Yeah, it's a phenomenal show. But then you're a lot more likely to keep an eye out for being gaslighted. What does it feel like when you know that, "wait, I just experienced something and now you're telling me that I didn't?" And speak out against it and don't try not to allow it to happen to you just by heightening your awareness to what it is. It's the first step, right? But all and told, like I said, this special edition compilation of Scientific American Truth versus Lies is fantastic. Totally encourage everyone to access it and read it because it is such an instructional tool and will educate you like it did me, sounds like you too Rob, on the complexities of what's happening in terms of perpetuation of untruths. There were like more than 25 articles in this compilation, so we're not going to get to them all today, but we're going to highlight a few, as you've said, and we're going use them as a jumping off point. So we got to move on. That's basically what I'm telling you. So the first one that I'm going to break down is implicit bias. So we've been hearing a lot about this, right? Particularly the rise of diversity, equity and inclusion. In the past two plus years and certainly in the recent past. Well, let's define it just so we're on the same page, listeners may or may not know the actual definition. So implicit bias, I guess, is defined by the authors of this article, and I accept this definition as one I've seen elsewhere. So let's say it's the truth, okay? For the purposes of discussion, this is true. This is a fact. Implicit bias is the tendency for stereotype, confirming thoughts to pass spontaneously through our minds. Okay, so the point of this particular article is that everybody has it and it's a sign, rather, that your brain is totally working properly, even if those thoughts, if verbalized, may get you into trouble. And it's kind of like a lot of people say, "Oh, it's not my fault! That's how I was raised." Well, that's an explanation, sure. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't work to change it. Right? But now, with the politicization of implicit bias, conservatives say progressives use it to find injustices everywhere. That's that whole "it's not my fault." And also progressives say conservatives use it to divert attention from more damaging instances of of truly explicit bigotry. So implicit bias. That's a huge emphasis of this special edition of Scientific American. You can learn a ton about it in there, but what do you have to say on the topic, Rob?
Rob Johnson [00:10:40] Well, I think that you're absolutely right about this being a cornerstone of the idea, training the awareness and in companies in this day and age. And I think the fact of the matter is, it's asking you, and when you said it initially, it's sort of like you may have these thoughts that go through your head and you know how everybody, you have like an internal monologue and an external monologue. The external monologue is the words that come out of your mouth and the internal monologue is the things you may be thinking that never touched your lips.
Eileen Rochford [00:11:11] Mm hmm.
Rob Johnson [00:11:12] I think the point of some of this is with the implicit bias, with the way that you may see the world, that others may not see it in the same way. Perhaps some of those thoughts should stay. thoughts.
Eileen Rochford [00:11:25] Yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:11:25] Instead of being. "Well, you know, this is just the way I grew up," or "I'm going to make some excuse for why I'm saying something out loud that some people might find offensive." And I'm not sitting here talking about, oh, gosh, the liberals are looking to find injustices everywhere. I mean, I think I think both parties can share some blame sometimes when they talk about, you know, kind of elevating the the lack of, you know, good discourse or proper discourse. But at the same time, if you're going to make the world a better place and I know that's like pie in the sky stuff, but if you're sitting here and you're going to raise awareness about how others might feel who are unlike you or who didn't have the same experience as you, you probably need to keep that in your internal monologue, and find out more about other people. And I do like the point about implicit bias is everywhere. Everybody has it. It's a sign your brain is working. However, you can do better.
Eileen Rochford [00:12:26] Yeah, yeah. I know in the past, in several of our episodes, we've talked about the power of the pause. Right? And the there is power in pausing, because in pausing, we often reflect, consider. So I don't have all the answers when it comes to implicit bias. It is far too complex of an issue. But I do know that one simple thing that I've adopted in the last three years is reflection for myself. Before I say something, before I write something, I try to examine my own thoughts and challenge myself. Is there bias in here? Have I really welcomed all input on this, and have I included enough diversity in those voices when I ask for input? Like, I'm making myself go through that that thought process, right? Because during during the pandemic, there were many moments where I was given the opportunity to learn about issues, implicit bias being one of them that I had never examined before. And I was nearly a 50 year old human being who was pretty liberal, and I hadn't done any of that, as many people have called it, work. Right. I didn't know I needed to. I truly didn't. Anyway, my consciousness was raised to things like implicit bias, and simply by knowing that that's something that I have to pay attention to, I hope I've changed. That's it. Right? So I'm just kind of saying there is power in pausing and that's something that everyone can do. It's a simple, simple tool, challenging, recognizing, reading, you know, even when you're reading your colleagues writing, thinking about is there implicit bias in here that maybe we need to strip out because it's not reflective of all the the voices that it should be. And we need to be far more inclusive in the story that we're telling. Anyway, those are the kinds of things you can do.
Rob Johnson [00:14:28] But the power of the pause is a great point, Eileen, because you're forcing yourself to take that pause and to think about the way that you're going to express something versus how maybe you should be expressing it to an audience of people that aren't all like you. So let's say we all have, we grew up in the same neighborhood. We had the same background and this and that. And that's, you know, if I see you on the street, that doesn't mean we're not going to catch up. But if we're among other people who didn't have that experience and I'm not trying to oversimplify this, all I'm saying is I'm not going to sit there and talk about that for 10 minutes if I know it's going to make other people uncomfortable, if it's an experience they didn't have. And it's what we're really talking about here is having self-awareness. And what you were talking about when you said you didn't realize you had to do this is you had a moment of I mean, listen, we had a lot of extra time during the pandemic, right? There's a lot of ways to look inward. And what you're saying is that you did and that you were trying to figure out a way of, "How can I process this better?" And self-awareness is huge. And I'm always on a journey of self-awareness. And I'm not saying I've reached it. I mean, the longer I go, the longer I realize I have to go.
Eileen Rochford [00:15:40] Right. But that definitely was a silver lining coming out of these past few years. You know, more and more people are acknowledging- I mean open to learn about things they didn't know that maybe they had been doing all their lives. And myself included, as I said, I'm grateful for that. There's little things that are positive that have come out of the past couple of years. And I definitely, I hold the belief that that's one of them. So people can can dig in to learning more about implicit bias. Our listeners there, if you haven't really done that, there are some great resources and I know we've had some guests on the show who have talked about that. So in the show notes, I promise to include links to another show or two where we talked about that. They were great shows. In addition, I have some resources that I gathered- that I'll link to the show notes- to just kind of like, self-guided courses and implicit bias, what it looks like, how to identify in your own thoughts, actions, or choices, and how as a leader of a team, you can be a guide in identifying presence of implicit bias and how to kind of bring cohesiveness to your team by getting them all to understand what it is and how to work through it. So I'll include some of those resources
Rob Johnson [00:17:10] And I'll make one last point about this, which is if your company has prioritized DEI and a lot of them have and a lot of them should. This is the one of the first things you're going to talk about is this is really the entry point to really getting in and talking about DEI in a more thoughtful, deep way. Implicit bias.
Rob Johnson [00:17:33]
Rob Johnson [00:17:34] We all have it no matter who we are. So anyway, I think that's a good point. One thing I want to talk about too here a little bit is why we trust lies so through the prism of social media, which distorts reality for many users through misinformation. Scientific American states that misinformation may seem like a misnomer. After all, many of today's most damaging false beliefs are initially driven by acts of propaganda and disinformation, which are deliberately deceptive and intended to cause harm. But part of what makes disinformation so effective in the age of social media is the fact that people who are exposed to it share it widely among friends and peers who trust them with no intention of misleading anyone. Maybe initially, social media transforms disinformation into misinformation, and I think that's a really important fact. So what they're saying is you may- perhaps you saw something like, "oh, this is really cool, I want to share it." And it was disinformation. It wasn't correct. But then at some point, you may realize that you're the peddler of disinformation, which then makes you somebody who is giving out misinformation when you're aware that it's incorrect and it's social media, it goes back to people that say, I get all my news from social media, Like you don't know who the source is, and I tell people all the time for somebody like me who left the TV business and for whom the facts, just the facts, are important. I have various ways to get my information. I don't sit around watching the news all day. I mean, I used to spend all day getting the news ready for people to to watch. And I don't do it that way anymore. But I do go to certain trusted sources, and I know that they're reliable sources. And to me, that's important.
Eileen Rochford [00:19:26] Mm hmm.
Eileen Rochford [00:19:31] Yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:19:31] Social media is just this, runaway train of information that may or may not be accurate. And then you start sharing it, you start doing that sort of thing, and next thing you know, you may be the purveyor of misinformation.
Eileen Rochford [00:19:44] Well, it's such a simple explanation by the author of this article. Social media transforms disinformation into misinformation, period. And it is a phenomena that occurs only in that environment. But it also that article went into some of the reasons why. And so let's explore those a little bit. So I'll give a couple of examples. Some that were cited included things like an innate desire to help that many of us just have. It's this feeling of sharing information is helping. And the belief that, "Oh, when I pass this on, I'm raising someone else's awareness to this really serious thing!" Without examining the validity of what it is that you're passing on. But it's just the driver could be this innate desire to be helpful, which initially that's wonderful. We never want to lose that within us as human beings, but we do have to check it with a, "hmm, I'm going to examine where this came from, who actually authored it, what's this data that they're citing? Etc." There's also this driver of, "Look at me, look at me," desire to be noticed, which we know is prominent on social media.
Rob Johnson [00:21:03] That is part and parcel. Yeah.
Eileen Rochford [00:21:05] Yeah. And you know, that could also be like intertwined with the desire to help. Even the impulse to act is something that people can't control. Impulsivity is real, and many personality types just don't have the filter to stop, to pause, to take the moment, to consider, "what is it that I'm sharing?" Impulsivity can be one of the most significant reasons why disinformation becomes misinformation, just because there isn't that stop built into the actions. But there's a lot of reasons why people do it. And we're not justifying the fact that it happens. But again, I think examining the drivers behind these things is smart because, you know, it starts with us, as they say. If you recognize, "oh, maybe I am doing that," because nobody ever thinks they're the one. But you just might be, so, hearing a little bit about, "Oh, maybe I do want to help. That is why I've been passing this information along." Well, that's great. And you should always continue to be a helpful person. But I think what Rob and I are trying to encourage is that examination, that more thorough or thoughtfulness step before hitting share is something that we all need to strive to do better in our opinions. I think you share that opinion.
Rob Johnson [00:22:32] Yeah. And I think the other thing, too, is the way you frame this about people initially wanting to help. That's very noble. And so I like the idea that you're saying a lot of people would be doing this because they think they're sharing and they're helping other people. But when you get to the point where you realize that it's not correct information, you don't need to just keep spreading it. You need to cease. If that's your intent is to help other people and not everybody is. I'm not suggesting social media is, you know, flooded with people that are there to do good.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:03] Altruism.
Rob Johnson [00:23:04] They're not altruistic necessarily. But if you know that that's not right, you need to stop spreading nonsense.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:14] Unfortunately a lot of people don't know. They truly don't. Yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:23:18] Because the other thing is, if I talk about it and if I say it enough times, then I talked it into existence.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:25] Well, that's why we're making this PSA right now. Right? We want people to know this. Our own little PSA.
Rob Johnson [00:23:31] Absolutely.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:32] Okay. Of course, there's the danger of these lies taking on a life of their own on social media. We've all seen it happen. One article in the special edition of Scientific American said this: "Ultimately, though, for most disinformation operations to succeed, it is regular users of the social web who must share the videos, use the hashtags, and add to the inflammatory comment threads. That means each one of us is a node in the battlefield for reality. Individuals need to be more aware of how our emotions and biases can be exploited with precision and consider what forces might be provoking us to amplify divisive messages. So every thumbs up that we advance, that we add to a post advances, amplifies, expands the reach of potentially divisive information. Everything we endorse every comment that we add, every share. It's - we have to pause. We have to think. Because you're sending a message through whatever it is that you're endorsing and worse, you're feeding the algorithm. I mean, hopefully-
Rob Johnson [00:24:51] That's the way it works.
Eileen Rochford [00:24:52] People have watched The Social Network and other things that are out there that are available to educate you on why your presence, your mere participation on social media makes you part of the problem. So you have a duty to be responsible when you're behaving, when you're making choices of how you behave, rather on social media. Again, that's my perception.
Rob Johnson [00:25:16] I mean, there's so much to unpack here because this is taking the last little bit of the conversation a step further and sitting here talking about all the things you do, the way that you interact with those fact or with a post or whatever the case is, It really has power and it certainly it does impact other people. And the thing that people have to remember, if you care about the truth and I'm not suggesting everybody listening to this does. So I don't want to be naive about it, but if you do care about the truth, then you need to spend that extra time and it's always like, "Oh, I got to go figure out of if this article's valid or this writer is who he or she says they are? I have to go do that? People don't do that. I just want to consume it." And I want to just assume that, you know, and the other thing is and we're not getting into it per say, but we can talk about it a little bit. I think it's sort of like the church of what I agree with, you know, I want to go find out some things that back up the way I feel about certain issues. That's the way a lot of people consume, say, news. And we're going to get into fake news here in a second. But that's the way people that's the way people get into it, is I want to I want to go find something that solidifies how I feel.
Rob Johnson [00:26:46] So again, it wasn't specific to the social media piece, but it is central to the way people think and the way they consume.
Eileen Rochford [00:26:55] Absolutely. I'm just going to say this again. Each one of us, it's a paraphrase, but each one of us is a node on the battlefield for reality.
Rob Johnson [00:27:04] That's such great writing, by the way.
Eileen Rochford [00:27:06] Be aware of how our emotions and biases are being exploited with precision. And think before you act. So that's kind of the final word on this aspect. But I tell my kids this and they're not kids anymore. They're the last ones on the verge of adulthood, you know, months away that. Social media is fun, right? They use it, literally, It's a part of, it is a way of life for them. But I tell them never lose sight of the fact that you're being manipulated every time you're on there. Never forget that. Everything that's in front of you, the algorithm equals manipulation.
Rob Johnson [00:27:50] And the more that you share it, the more that you do it, it drives up the algorithms, it makes it more common. And then all of a sudden you're like, Gosh, I'm seeing this post or this idea everywhere. It's because people drove it. Oh, look how many likes there were. Look how many, you know, thumbs up or whatever they are. It must be true.
Eileen Rochford [00:28:11] Sure, it must be true!
Rob Johnson [00:28:13] And sometimes the answer is no. It's not.
Eileen Rochford [00:28:17] You can still consume information very responsibly on social media, there's no doubt about it. But there are skills that you have to have, an awareness that you must bring with you to the experience every time in order to be able to do that. So let's delve more into that Rob.
Rob Johnson [00:28:34] Yeah, so, I just said it a second ago. We're talking about fake news. And the last few years in that business, it was fake news. Fake news. I disagree with the fake news. It's such an easy brush off, right? You know, it's like, "I disagree with you, fake news." Well, this one's especially troubling, obviously, given my years as a news anchor and reporter. And according to a study from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, they tracked 126,000 stories on Twitter between 2016 and 2017. We're also more likely to share fake news than real news, especially fake political stories, which spread further and quicker than those about money, natural disasters or state terrorism. The paper suggested that people crave novelty. Fake news in general plays to our emotions and our personal identity, enticing us to react before we've had a chance to process the information and decide if it is worth spreading. Translation: Is it factual? Do I care that I'm spreading something that is not factual? The more that content surprises, scares, or enrages us, the more we seem to share it. So that's kind of a news thing in general. Like the more people are always looking for that really good story with great pictures that are going to shock you. You know, because that's human nature. And so the more outrageous it is, the more unbelievable it is, the more improbable it may seem, the more clicks it's probably going to get. "Did you hear about politician X? He's a __," you know, and it just, there may be absolutely no fact to back up whatever lie's being spread.
Eileen Rochford [00:30:22] Oh, we saw that just with the attack on Nancy Pelosi's husband. How quickly the terrible reactions to that literal tragedy? I mean, how old is that poor man? And he was attacked with a hammer in his home.....
Eileen Rochford [00:30:36] And he's seriously injured. Yeah, we saw that. And, you know, we continue to see it all the time. You just got to come with your critical thinking skills when you go on the Internet, otherwise you're going to get sucked into this stuff and you're going to share it and be part of the problem. And do we want to be part of the problem or do we want to be part of the solution? That's you know, a central question.
Rob Johnson [00:30:58] I know where we stand. I know I know where we stand because we're doing a podcast episode on this whole issue. And sometimes I feel like, are people listening to this and thinking, "oh, gosh, they're being so naive. They're so idealistic," this or that. But it's like this stuff matters.
Eileen Rochford [00:31:15] It does.
Rob Johnson [00:31:15] And I'm not a Boy Scout. I'm not perfect. I'm not sitting here like, you know, holier than thou. That's just never been part of my character to, like, judge or to say, "Oh, I'm perfect and you're not." But I will say that I sleep better at night knowing that I'm not trying to go out of my way to hurt people, to mislead people, or to do something like that. Because to me, it's counterproductive.
Eileen Rochford [00:31:43] Absolutely. I'm going to leave you with a final thought on this fake news portion of the episode. It's this: so a 2021 study found it's at age 14 when kids often start believing unproven, conspiratorial ideas. Children are the most ripe targets for fake news. And it seems kind of obvious, but it is so important to remind parents-- teachers are well aware of this, in my opinion, just from my exposure to teachers. But parents in particular have to get-- they've got to accept this, that their kids are on social media, whether they like it or not, whether they know it or not. And they're the most ripe to be manipulated by this information. And by age 14 the bait can be in them, and sunk so that they're not getting free when it comes to conspiratorial theories. So I just want to say, please keep an eye out for that and try to teach them to be able to discern fact from fiction when they're on the Internet.
Rob Johnson [00:32:59] I could not agree more, and I will just tell you that my son, who left home at 15, spent two years in Michigan playing hockey. So he didn't live at home and lived with, you know, a peer group of people that sometimes, some of these ideas were shared. And the one thing that I'm thankful for is that some kids would just take it and run with it. And they were not critically thinking about it at all. I'm grateful that my son would say, "Dad, what about this? Dad? What about that?" And it wasn't me giving my political views because I said, "You're your own person." And if you look at the facts, the facts, not the opinions. And if you tell me, you know, "I heard this, this and this," and I say, that's all lies. "How do you know?" I'll show it to you. But he let me guide him in the way of critical thinking, and I'm grateful for that. So he may agree with something that I might not agree with, but he was well informed when he did. And I don't expect him to do to to to follow along and do exactly what him and and my wife do because he's his own young man.
Eileen Rochford [00:34:12] I think we know who's going to be our next guest? (laughs).
Rob Johnson [00:34:19] "What do you have to say about that?"
Eileen Rochford [00:34:21] "How did that happen? How did you develop those skills?"
Rob Johnson [00:34:25] "My Dad made me. My dad lectured me!" No, it wasn't that. It was us having really useful conversations. And I'm like, If you still think this is right, I just want you to know these are the facts. They're leading you down that road. And sometimes you'd say, "Well, I agree with this or that," or "I didn't know that," but at least we had the conversation. So I know that we probably went on a little bit longer about that, but I actually had an anecdote about it with Jayden. You know, being able to have those discussions. And I'm grateful that we were able to have them. And I'm grateful that he trusts me enough that he'd say, "Hey, I've heard this or that. Is it true?" And I might say, yes, or I might say, "Buddy, that's completely false."
Eileen Rochford [00:35:08] I am grateful that you brought that up honestly, because it applies not just to parenting, it applies to colleagues, friends, peers, people that are in your book club. We all have the opportunity to help raise awareness to discernment, and how to determine if something is factual or if something really is just pure manipulation, exploitation intended to hurt us all, but we just can't see it because it's so artfully masked. Right? So that, what you achieved with Jayden, I think we can all achieve through our own interpersonal relationships on a daily basis, we all have an opportunity to be part of the solution. But I want to just talk about, we mentioned conspiracy theories and how it's at age 14 when children are primed and start to accept conspiracy theories. Shocking but true. There's an article again in this compilation in Scientific American, and it says that new research suggests that events happening worldwide are nurturing underlying emotions that make people more willing to believe in conspiracies. Experiments have revealed that feelings of anxiety make people think more conspiratorially. Such feelings, along with a sense of disenfranchisement, currently grip many Americans, according to surveys. And in such situations, a conspiracy theory can provide comfort by identifying a convenient scapegoat and thereby making the world seem more straightforward and controllable. I mean, this just hit the nail on the head of so many things that I suspected. And it's not just that it's validating, but it it like wrapped it all up with a bow. So logically and I realize, oh my God, that's why this has been going on at such a rate over the past couple of years. I mean, just think about the rise, the sharp rise in mental health challenges and the presence of things like anxiety disorders that have, you know, skyrocketed in the last three years. We know that's the case. So, of course, we're all like ready to be victims of this. Right. And on a level never before seen, at least in our lifetime. So it's it's just I don't know that it's comforting when you finally get an explanation for something. But I always believe that knowledge is power. Right. When you know that that's the case, then you can do something about it.
Rob Johnson [00:37:59] And that's what I crave all the time. You know, the worst feeling I have is when there may be a problem or an issue. And I don't have the full context of what happened. I don't know where the the bullets are coming from necessarily. And that's very frustrating for me because I want to solve the problem. But as it relates to the conspiracy theories, you're taking something that is I don't want to say preposterous, but it's maybe it's got a very low level of believability and it would take all of these things to fall into place to have this actually happen. And then somebody pushes this conspiracy theory and this had to happen and that had to happen. And they're all like big things that had to happen to have everything fall into line. And then it's something that may be inexplicable. And then all of a sudden you go, "Oh, that explains it. All those crazy things just lined up. And that's how it happened." And that's really, I think, what else we're talking about here, which is that it makes the unbelievable more believable.
Eileen Rochford [00:39:00] Mm hmm.
Eileen Rochford [00:39:03] Well, this wasn't mentioned in the article. There's another thing that I wanted to introduce as a piece of the explanation or the puzzle, I guess. And what becomes of it by putting them together becomes an explanation. So I think it was last week Edelman's trust barometer. They did this drill down that I found really, really interesting. It was a regional kind of dissection just in the United States of our four regions. And it was a collaboration with Harvard Business School. And this drill down looked at differences in trust levels of institutions. You know, we've talked about the Edelman trust barometer before. So like businesses, government, media, NGOs, all of the above. The Midwest has is the least trusting of the four regions. Honestly, I was stunned. But think about trust and its role-- or the erosion of trust, I should say, and the role that it plays in us being more susceptible to conspiracy theories, misinformation and disinformation. We know there's a link. Right? So living here in the Midwest, frankly, living anywhere in the United States where we know that trust in institutions is shifting and significantly eroding in some serious, important, I should say, entities, that's got a huge impact, too. So, again, knowledge is power.
Rob Johnson [00:40:30] Were you able to get any sort of clarity? I mean, what is it about the Midwest?
Eileen Rochford [00:40:38] Interesting question. Okay. So here's a simple, very simplistic explanation. So decades of industry migration out of the Midwest, the loss of jobs, loss of prosperity, that. I mean, that's been going on since the sixties and seventies. Right? The sharp rise in the eighties. So entire towns have been destroyed, you know, like Detroit, for example. So that that's a huge piece.
Rob Johnson [00:41:05] Makes sense
Eileen Rochford [00:41:07] Because there was no safety net. So they don't trust government because they didn't help them and the media didn't tell the story of the impact and suffering of people. And it just like, it was as if they were just left with no help whatsoever. Right. I think that's the simplistic. And then now there's this new threat of automation. So their jobs, you know, any jobs that exist in the Midwest, people are kind of feeling like, "oh, great, they're going to do it again." You know what I mean?
Rob Johnson [00:41:36] That actually makes perfect sense when you started framing it that way. And I was like, Yeah, because they've been burned. Yeah. And industries leaving and leaving and leaving. And then some politicians or people might say, "Oh, everything's going to be fine." And then it wasn't fine. And they just heard the lies over and over again, and actions and words didn't always match up, so that actually makes a lot of sense.
Eileen Rochford [00:41:56] Yeah, well, we know that the antidote to mistrust is a combination of things like transparency, authenticity. You know, walking the walk, all of that. So just checking that at the end of something for all of us to remember as we go about our daily lives. Can I throw in some things about because you know me, I want the solution. I don't have all the answers.
Eileen Rochford [00:42:22] Let's talk about some of the things we all have power over since this is a PSA, right? All right. We want to help. Some of the things we can all do is step away, put down the mobile phone, stop social media interaction. A detox is widely noted by psychiatrists and therapists alike, a social media detox. A long break is good for everybody. So think about doing that for yourself because you can come back to the content with a very fresh eye if you do that and give yourself that gift. Okay. So also another one widely recommended by experts in mental health is stop binging on the bad news people. Okay, doomscrolling rather is no good for anyone.
Rob Johnson [00:43:10] Yes. And who doesn't have a relative or six that are like, "did you see the story about" and you're like, I can't. Just, I can't muster up that energy. It's just almost impossible for me.
Eileen Rochford [00:43:22] It's no different than the olden days of gossip spreading. Right, right. It's no different than that, but way worse. Also critical thinking. This is a muscle that we all have to build. We don't have good enough critical thinking skills, pretty much anybody, and particularly children, but adults. It's going to be, you know, warning, it's a lot harder for you to learn critical thinking at this age for a whole bunch of reasons we don't have time to go into. But you can still learn enough to make a difference in what you think and how you act, particularly on social media.
Rob Johnson [00:43:57] And critical thinking is what you need to have to be part of the solution and not the problem that we're bringing up today.
[00:44:06]
Rob Johnson [00:44:06] If you have critical thinking, then all of a sudden you can help solve the problem as opposed to being a part of the problem as it relates to making lies a way of life.
Eileen Rochford [00:44:15] Right. So make the commitment to yourself to learn critical thinking, to adapt, no-- adopt, sorry, the right behaviors and actions that enhance critical thinking. So we'll just leave it at that. And in the show notes, I'm going to put two resources where you can, where adults can learn more and advance their their own critical thinking skills. So I went and did the work for you!
Rob Johnson [00:44:42] Listen, first of all, this was your suggestion that we dive into some of these things. And again, we just scratched the surface of this this large compilation of very, very interesting articles in Scientific American. So kudos to you for giving us the nudge to go here today.
Eileen Rochford [00:45:01] Well, thank you. I'm going to have a closing thought that I think is really important that I'll share and then we'll sign off. Dishonesty begets dishonesty, unethical behavior. It just spreads rapidly. Right. Whether it's in-- I guess think of it like a contagion, a virus. It spreads everywhere. So as a leader, as a human being, like I mean, leader at your work, leader at your church, leader at your library, book club, I don't know, anything! Right? Be the antidote through your personal words or actions and everywhere in your life. And I refuse to believe that this is going to bring us down. And I would love it if our listeners joined in the fight against the the lies, the misinformation, the disinformation.
Rob Johnson [00:45:49] No truer words. Join us on our journey.
Eileen Rochford [00:45:53] There you have it. Right. Thank you. I think in the better of mankind, every day you're given.
Rob Johnson [00:45:58] Go. Listen, that's that's a strong way to end it, Eileen. No question. Well, that's going to do it for this episode of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson.
Eileen Rochford [00:46:05] And I'm Eileen Rochford, and we thank you for listening and remind you that you can find Can You Hear Me? wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Google podcasts. And don't forget to hit that subscribe button because we would love to have you as a subscriber.
Rob Johnson [00:46:20] Absolutely.
Eileen Rochford [00:46:21] Thanks so much.