The 2022 Edelman Trust Barometer is out. It is the most respected and longest running annual report about the state of trust globally, surveying 36,000 respondents in 28 countries. This year’s findings are truly alarming: distrust has become our default position, and major institutions in society are fueling the cycle of increasing distrust. In this next episode of “Can You Hear Me?” co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford, conduct a panel discussion with communications strategist Lissa Druss of Strategia Consulting, and college professor and former agency mainstay Anne Marie Mitchell of Columbia College, about what the 2022 survey findings means to business leaders and our institutions
Background on our Panelists:
https://www.colum.edu/academics/faculty/anne-mitchell http://linkedin.com/in/anne-marie-mitchell-6906bb3 Anne Marie Mitchell
TeamStrategia.com linkedin.com/in/lissadruss Lissa Druss
Reference Materials:
https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2022-01/Trust%2022_Top10.pdf
https://www.edelman.com/trust/2022-trust-barometer/stabilizing-force-business
https://www.edelman.com/trust/2022-trust-barometer/defaulting-back-trust
https://www.edelman.com/trust/2022-trust-barometer/breaking-vicious-cycle-distrust
https://www.edelman.com/trust/2022-trust-barometer/distrust-and-media-what-business-can-do
Another external viewpoint that coincides with the findings of the 2022 barometer: https://www.blackrock.com/corporate
Rob Johnson [00:00:07] Hello again, everyone, welcome to episode 17 of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson, President of Rob Johnson Communications.
Eileen Rochford [00:00:15] I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the marketing strategy firm The Harbinger Group. Analyzing the yearly Edelman Trust Barometer is fascinating to me, and it's a real insight into what Americans are thinking about those who influence all of us. The title of this edition of Edelman's yearly survey, which was released in January, is The Cycle of Distrust.
Rob Johnson [00:00:35] Now we're going to do this a little differently today. Instead of one guest, we have two. We're very fortunate to have two experts in the field of communication. The first is Lissa Druss, who like me started her career in journalism, but then transitioned to this strategy role by first working at Serafin and Associates for eight years. Then, three years ago, starting her own firm, Strategic Consulting. Lissa, welcome.
Lissa Druss [00:00:56] Thank you very much, Rob and Eileen.
Eileen Rochford [00:00:59] It's great to have you. Thanks for being with us. And our other expert today is Anne Marie Mitchell. Anne Marie has spent many years in the agency world, having worked at Golin and Ketchum, and she said urgent leadership roles at major corporations. She still does agency work on a contract basis and for the past 14 years. She's also been an associate professor at Columbia College here in Chicago, teaching PR Studies courses in developing a new curriculum. Anne Marie, I'm so delighted to have you here. It's great for you to be with us. Appreciate it.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:01:32] Thank you. Excited to be here.
Rob Johnson [00:01:34] So let's start this conversation with the cycle of distrust because that's where the focus is, because as this report illustrates, distrust is now society's default emotion. We're witnessing an unprecedented volume of disinformation and societal division, which many feel is fueled by government and media institutions battling for political and commercial gain. So, leading the list, or should I say, at the bottom of the list, depending on how you look at it? Nearly one in two respondents view government and media as divisive forces in society, 48 percent view government, and 46 percent view the media in this light. Equally concerning is the finding that journalists were seen as trustworthy by just 46 percent of respondents and government leaders, even less just 42 percent. I know we're throwing a lot of numbers at everybody, but we're just trying to give it context before we get into our discussion.
So Lissa, let's start with you. As someone who spent years working in the media and now who runs her own firm with government clients, why does this trust in these two institutions continue to erode? And it seems like every year they're kind of at the bottom of this. And so I think probably telling people, "Hey, government media are at the bottom of the list," and people are going to shake their heads. But what's the long-term ramification of having these kinds of numbers year in and year out?
Lissa Druss [00:02:55] Well, one of the things that we are often consulted for is crisis communications. And if you look at the word trust. It is eerily similar to the word truth, even has a you in there, a couple of teeth in their trust and truth are paramount. And when you are talking about the media or the government, you have to be trustful. That means you have to be speaking about the truth. Sometimes the truth is ugly. Sometimes people do want to hear the truth. But when you're looking at the government, specifically when there is something funky going wrong or something's not right, shining a spotlight and making the truth stand out is 100 percent the way to kill a conspiracy to kill something bad, kill whatever when we're doing crisis communication.
The one thing that we look for is truth because truth is the best defense. Truth, truth, truth and truth leads to trust. Now, this day and age, it pains me to say this, as a journalist. Social media is more important than traditional media. The best thing about the internet is anyone can become an expert. The bad thing about the internet is anyone can become an expert. And if you are not truthful in that, then no one is going to trust you.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:04:19] And what do we think is
Eileen Rochford [00:04:21] ahead for all of us if these numbers continue to dwindle? Was that particularly in government institutions?
Lissa Druss [00:04:29] Well, the numbers are going to continue to dwindle because it's going to be more and more and more and more and more social media. You have a podcast, Tom Serafin and I have a podcast. Ten years ago, we didn't even know what a podcast was. So this is going to continue to amplify and there's going to be more messengers and more messengers and more messengers. Really, it's a crisis because the truth will bubble up. Truth it will sustain will be the end of all ends will be the truth, and everything else is just going to get pushed down. And it's really about education and informing people information is knowledge.
Knowledge is power. And if you give people the right information, got a fighting chance at winning this, especially with the government, our governments aren't going to go away. Our local municipal governments are some of the hardest things to work in. Unbelievably hard work with a ton of them, and I don't envy them, but we need them because this is what our country's government is based on. Good government. Shine a spotlight on good government shining the spotlight. All the cockroaches are gone now.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:05:33] That's a really good point. I'm glad you mentioned local government. I was thinking to myself, that is one of the growing areas. One of the bright spots is, I think people do trust local government and local news. I know we're going to talk a little bit more about that. I think a little bit, one thing we need to do is take a step back and this whole debate about the role of journalists and timing in terms of shining a light.
A hundred years ago, public opinion was published by Walter Lippmann, who is really one of the first pundits and so if we kind of take that long term perspective, we know that punditry and this influence journalists have tried to exert over our government is a little bit part of the history of journalism, right? Even Walter Lippmann was challenging this idea that journalists could be entirely neutral because they wanted, everybody sees the world and through a certain lens, a certain reality and wants to shape it into the reality that they see. So this whole debate about the truth, and the ability for the journalists to be a non-bias is something we've always been talking about.
Punditry is really because of social media tie to what you were saying is just gone through the roof, right? So this ability of a journalist to share their opinion and then what is it a journalist or is it an entertainer to write? And we know that that's one of these issues that's really shaping and driving this mistrust because we don't, not necessarily even see the role of a journalist anymore. As independent, many journalists also have entertainment publicists. They're trying to grow their brand, their personal brand. I think time is actually what you said. Social media enables this right and enables this blurring of lines between a truth seeker and a promoter, right? And we also know, I read some articles, Columbia Journalism review to look at Obama what Obama was doing, which is Zacarias and some of the pundits and trying to kind of curry their favor so that maybe an opinion piece could be written in his favor and in a time when he's trying to get, public opinion to stir his way. We know Trump, and that and our president, former president, took that to a new level in terms of the relationship and the blurring of lines between news and government. So I think that's a really important issue to us. This is part of the challenge.
Lissa Druss [00:08:06] That's a really great one second.
Rob Johnson [00:08:19] That's a great point. Anne Marie and Lissa, you said something earlier about the podcast, which is content creation, which is what we're doing today, and you talked about yours and Tom's. And I think it's really important. I know that our opinions about things that are based upon our backgrounds and based upon our years in the professional world creep in. I have no doubt about that. What I'm suggesting is that what Eileen and I are doing here, what you're what you and Tom are doing on your podcast, you are trying to give good information and trying to peddle the truth.
A lot of people would do something like this so that they could spread misinformation. So I think that one of the most dangerous points that we can make here is if you and your heart are trying to impart accurate, good, important information, that's one thing. Yes, opinion does creep in, no question. But if you're sitting there saying we're going to create a podcast or some other kind of content creation to mislead people, that's the road that we absolutely can't go down, that we appear to be going down. And he thought
Lissa Druss [00:09:30] Shameless plug. Our podcast is called The Crisis Podcast appropriately named, and the opinion that we share is our experience and the opinions that we give our clients and how to have truth prevail. Because every crisis client that Tom and I have, either that we share or we work on independently. And Thomas, we are still together, even though I don't work with him anymore. We still share clients and we share resources and his son works for me. But we ultimately ask for the truth so that our clients are trustworthy. That's what we do is we raise awareness and create third-party supporters so that we can help.
We keep stumbling because it's so simple, but it's so complex, we help our clients understand that they are trustworthy. We want work. We wouldn't put Serpent and associates wouldn't put their name on a client if they didn't believe a strategy. Consulting would not put our name on a client if we didn't believe in them. Truth be told, we have a client right now that has that liability, I'll tell you, because I've been quoted in the paper and them. They were investigated by the feds last week. They're a lab testing agent for a covert. They probably just got lumped in with every other lab that's being investigated. But one of the reporters, Eric Hong, I was talking to Christian, was talking to you about this. Is it guys? You know me? I wouldn't put my name with this company if they weren't trustworthy. And they're like, you're right, less so. I'm not going to work with people that are trustworthy and I'm going to help them become more trustworthy.
Eileen Rochford [00:11:18] I love hearing that. APPLAUSE, applause, applause, thank you. I mean, there is just the challenge that I think is there are people like you in this industry and the rest of us on this podcast. Share that point of view. Absolutely. And so we live by that code, but there are so many who don't. So, when the volume of information that's been pushed out by untrustworthy as well as trustworthy folks, how are people to discern, that's largely where we sit. The challenge that we face.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:11:53] I love, though, that Lissa shared that. And I think it is a trend, though, where we're seeing more agencies, even big agencies. Edelman recently announced, too, that they are going to do a review of clients and make sure that there is an alignment in terms of climate action that all of their clients are taking and try to do the right thing. And I think that gets to another point of the Edelman survey. I mean, it's interesting Edelman put out the trust barometer and they are the agency that is doing this and is taking this huge step and saying, we're going to put our money where our mouth is and we're going to do a client review and make sure that our clients are, are doing the right thing and employees are demanding it as well.
Eileen Rochford [00:12:34] Highly admirable. I'm really grateful to see that because, it wasn't long ago that our industry, particularly on the PR side, didn't exactly have the greatest reputation. So we've all battled that in the time that we've been doing this as a career. I'm going to transition us into or back to, I guess, looking at some more of the findings from the most recent Edelman Trust barometer.
So when it comes to our major sources of information, the public trusts wait for it. Search engines the most with fifty nine percent viewing this source as trustworthy. Traditional news media slightly less 57 percent owned media at a much slower 43 percent in social media as the least trusted of all at 37 percent. I want to pause for just a second on that search engine as the most trusted with the highest number. Obviously a little concerning because we all, I think, know full well search engines are. They mostly deliver information. They certainly don't originate information and the way that they deliver that information is highly targeted and they do so because they're looking to send information to people so that they'll click on it.
Clearly, the point being if the information aligns with their personal belief systems or their values or their own ideas, grounded or ungrounded, that's what they send them. So that alone, I just want us to kind of let that sink in for a second because that number has continued to climb. And now it's at a point where I was personally a little terrified to see that. So just to pause on that, I don't know if anybody wants to jump in on that point in the segment we kind of teed up
Lissa Druss [00:14:27] I just got an answer. You know what? The second-largest search engine in the world is YouTube, YouTube, YouTube. Why? Because it's visual. Nonverbal communication is two thirds of how we communicate. Nonverbal communication is two thirds of how we communicate. So that music, that video, that color, that saying that's how we communicate, and that's why people gravitate to YouTube.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:14:57] Yeah. I was thinking about when Pew does, how these annual surveys mounts more regularly than annual but of media trends. And I remember 10 years ago when I would teach the students, I would talk about media channels, where do you get your news? And so many would say, I get it from Facebook. I get it. And I would say, that's not a news channel that is a distributor of news content and the students. Then I think they were maybe ahead of me on this. Actually, when you look at it, the kids are always ahead of the trends because look at where it is today.
I'm sure driving some of this understanding that, no, actually, I am getting my news from a search engine and I told you that 10 years ago. And it's and and more and more are saying that. So whether you like it or not, that is the reality. And I think if you take a global perspective and think about what's happening in Ukraine today, we know that search engines do serve a purpose. Some countries, the media are state-owned and can't be trusted. So I mean, it's this intersection between, in this game, I mean, we're going to talk about corporations in a minute, but why are corporations trusted in corporate, running, running a lot of these social media channels of corporate leaders because they have such an oversize impact on world events. So I think the students were ahead when it came to knowing that social media or web social media would be their new source.
Eileen Rochford [00:16:32] So I want to introduce another component to this thread that we're unraveling. Concern over fake news is at an all-time high right now, yet we know that so much of what's delivered through search engines, which are so highly trusted, isn't necessarily fact-based. In fact, often it's not fact-based. The crackdown on that has been too slow and so much damage has been done. But is there pressure right now on the news media to provide fact-based reporting versus that amplification of propaganda and fake news? Does that pressure exist in our panelists' opinions?
Lissa Druss [00:17:18] Well, number one, let's go back to the days of Tom Brokaw. Peter Jennings, Dan Rather. Did we know what political affiliation they were? Unlikely. We didn't. Now you cannot turn on a network without knowing their political affiliation, and you literally I tell my daughter and I tell her people watch two networks. Watch CNN and watch Fox, and then you can watch the same exact story being reported with two different spins. That's what unfortunately a lot of our news has become today as it gravitates to one audience or the other to draw in the audience that they want so that they can build on that audience so they can charge more for commercials so that they can build on that audience. It's become so sexualized. It's disgusting, and I truly believe in my heart of hearts that there's going to be some kind of a is going to have to be an outlet that actually does not report the news with bias. Yeah, and that has to happen.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:18:28] Yeah, and I think, Lissa, you're right and the trend toward nonprofit, I mean, I know because at a Columbia College Chicago where I teach journalism students, they want to be a part of these new media changes, right? They want to contribute in a positive way, and they challenge the profit motivation of many corporate media entities. We were just talking about how Chicago Public Media just purchased the Sun-Times. So we're going to see that it's going to be huge.
Block Club Chicago is so trusted by everyone I know in Chicago. I mean, quite honestly, that's where the people will go for the news. They were the first to break the story. I had that horrible fire in the neighborhood the other day, and we still don't know how it was caused. That brought down business establishments. On the north side in Albany Park and Block Club Chicago was the first one to break the story that they were looking into. One of the maybe the landlords and in really investigating it and bringing that news out and and, people turned their fur their fur. So I think these experiments are growing, and I think it might be what Lissa was getting at in terms of what is going to have to change. And I think it's looking at the profit motive.
Rob Johnson [00:19:37] I think it's very reassuring of what you just said and Marie, because there are entities out there that are doing what you're suggesting if you're going to restore that trust and when 76 percent of the people are suggesting that they just want fact-based reporting. And yet, Lissa, what you said about CNN or Fox, so many people turn on the TV who are still turning on the TV, by the way, and they're going right to where they want to hear what they want to hear. And that is a huge profit center. And now you're talking about having a not for profit model that's really starting to flourish.
I think that's good. If you just want the facts, that's probably going to be the best way because still the power of a fox or a CNN or an MSNBC who takes sides before the story is even reported. That's been a horrendous trend in terms of building that trust.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:20:35] Absolutely. And we know the Fox News relationship is a very highly profiled and publicized relationship between the White House, past Trump, former President Trump and Fox News. It was very clear, like it wasn't even masked that there was a revolving door between, folks, his counsels on the news network, his counselors, and then some of the and now and that trend started with, Obama, Clinton, they all were like, we were talking about earlier. They have all gotten insights from pundits and journalists as well and tried to establish that relationship with them so that they could have them. You put that well-placed article or that well-placed commentary out in support of their policies.
Lissa Druss [00:21:25] Let's talk about Chris Cuomo and Governor Cuomo. Raise your hand if you were shocked that Chris Cuomo was talking to his brother when his brother's in trouble.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:21:34] Really, I was shocked, shocked that
Lissa Druss [00:21:37] I can be suspicious.
Rob Johnson [00:21:40] Yes. They can't see facetiousness in us.
Lissa Druss [00:21:46] But if I were a journalist, we would work like Dickens to cultivate sources. I mean, we were nothing without our sources. And how many times would we have elected officials or even their chiefs of staff contact us to try and spin us to try and turn us away? I mean, that Tom Serpent did it forever. That's how he met his wife and servants who tried and I and you tried to spin it again, his candidate on the air more. That's what they do.
People like Rob and I, which are dinosaurs in the unbiased news that we take with the proverbial grain of salt in this day and age when I deal with elected officials, first of all, I don't work for them. I work with them. I don't work on campaigns. I don't represent one side or the other. It's Tom, and I are probably the last two firms in a city, if not the country, that are nonpolitical. We are. We do not side. We are known as a Republican or Democratic firm, both of our firms. We are apolitical. And that is what we pride ourselves on so that we can help our clients to the best of our ability on both sides of the aisle.
Rob Johnson [00:22:56] It's really that's a really important point that you're making there in terms of, still having that guiding light that you're following, even though you've left that business and I've left that business, I still am. Having spent 25 plus years in it, it's hard to say, Oh, I'm taking a side because I spent years not taking a side. And so people say, What industries are your best industries? Like whoever has trouble communicating and somebody will say, I've got this person or that person. And if I think that they're doing as you're talking about the trust factor earlier, Lissa, if I feel like that's something that's important to them, then those are the people that you want to work with. This is a really interesting part of the conversation, but I want to change gears a little bit now and talk a little bit about business.
The expectations for where people work, business specifically quote my employer leads in the most trusted category with 77 percent. Overall, business leads the way at 61 non-governmental organizations, NGOs at 59 percent, governments at 52 and the media at 50. This wasn't always the case, as historically I feel like there has always been a palpable skepticism about what my boss tells me. True. So Anne Marie, is this trust in your business? The fact that people are working remotely, the fact that there is a disconnect now in the business world a little bit, even though we have great ways to communicate the fact that you can't communicate in person? Is this a product of the pandemic disconnect where workers are craving more information, any information or do you think it's something else?
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:24:32] A great question. I spent a few decades in employee communications and I still consult in this area. And I think the work going on in organizations today, the CEO, senior executives to forge these bonds and connections internally is really off the charts. I think that retention like you're saying now, is so difficult with the remote workforce. But yet technology has enabled people to see each other face to face. I mean, missing that in-person connection but being able to connect regularly through technology. It's a fact that retention is important.
Now we know the great resignation is a huge trend. We know that when employers can retain their workers there, their workers, they're going to see tremendous cost savings because onboarding is so as you know, as business owners, right? As small business owners, once you get that employee on board and they've been trained and they know your routines, you don't want to lose those people. You want to do everything you can to keep the people. It's the same no matter what organization you have, small or large, right? So cost savings, but then happy employees are productive employees, right?
There's that bottom-line benefit. And the great thing living in this data-driven society that we're in now is the data. Is it? I mean it is known. You keep employees, you retain your good employees, you keep them happy, they're going to be more productive. You are going to see the bottom-line savings. Smart companies are acting on this data. And I can tell you this wasn't always the case. Like you were saying, Rob, you didn't always trust the boss. You always looked at the boss with skepticism. And I can tell you, when I started in this business I worked for, I will not name a very large utility company in Chicagoland and the CEO at the time.
I remember when I was doing employee communications work, the trust survey came in. We had done a survey to find out if employees trust leadership. The numbers weren't good. So basically, the CEO said, Well, we're just going to put that away and not do anything with it. That was very common, back then, right? You didn't like the numbers, you just didn't share them. And there was a CEO transition and there was a change in the culture. Now every employer wants to be on their best employees list that CEO, they want to be the most trusted CEO. So they are working really hard with that data and trying to establish that reputation. And I and I, I think it's no accident. That you're seeing employers and my CEO is trusted. CEOs generally are not trusted. But my CEO is trusted and my colleagues and my coworkers are trusted. So I think that's what the data shows. And I think it's largely because that's the real work that the organization's industry is doing now. They want to fill that void in our society.
Eileen Rochford [00:27:29] That I just want to jump in on that point that you made about my CEO, my coworkers. That's interesting because that also kind of aligns with another aspect of the findings of the trust barometer about trusting people kind of in your tribe. Right? People from your city more than you do your fellow Americans or people from other countries, et cetera, et cetera. Right. That's very clear from this data, and it has continued to climb. Another very disturbing piece of it, but one that I don't think we're going to delve too deeply into today. But it's interesting how that aligns.
So let's move into another area here. We've got a couple more big bites of this data that we wanted to be sure we cover. So while businesses outscore his government by 5.3 points on competency and 26 points on ethics, respondents believe business is not doing enough to address societal problems, including climate change, 52 percent economic inequality, 49 percent workforce reskilling, 46 percent, and providing the trustworthy information, 42 percent and further CEOs are expected to shape conversation and policy and policy. Pardon me on issues like jobs for the economy. That's a whopping 76 percent wage inequality. 73 percent technology in automation. That's 74 in global warming and climate change at 68 percent. So my question to our panelists is what can leaders do to better understand what is expected of them from all of these key constituencies? I'm not just talking about the people who work there, but all of the constituencies, people who buy their products, partners, influencers, etc. What can they do to better understand what is expected of them from these folks? And do they have an obligation to communicate their own in their company's position and major societal issues?
Lissa Druss [00:29:35] First of all, they need to wake up and smell the coffee. And this is evolution. OK? This is not the old boys network anymore. I, my company, is a certified, one-time business enterprise. I am proud of that. I work with many companies where diversity inclusion is a key factor. I have my clients claim me as a diverse spend because I have a WB certification. This has to change. This is no longer business as usual. Evolution, everything evolves again. We didn't have podcasts 10 years ago, now we do. We didn't have diversity inclusion mandates for now. We do not want their mandate married. It's a wrong word. It should be included in every corporate structure. It's a hard thing to do. Not everyone is good at it, but you have to look at what you have your makeup on and make sure everyone is treated equally. And it's disgusting that it's still happening today. And it's not. It's disgusting.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:30:39] Yeah, Lissa hits on a great point. In the past year, the amount of conferences and discussions and truly impactful work that organizations are doing around P.E.I. is impressive. And I mean, it's only the beginning, and some of it is too much conversation, not enough action. But, at least some of it is action and some organizations really are saying, how do we lift the voices of those who've never been represented before? How do we literally change our organizational structure to make more room? And I, yeah, I think it's the tipping point. Hopefully, we're going to be seeing a lot more because I think that the key is just bringing diverse voices in and leading with empathy. I think that's another thing that I think we're starting to see more of from leaders is, just trying to be more. There, where they were meeting people where they're at, hearing what they're saying here and what their issues are, and responding. So I think it's continuing to lead with empathy, decreasing that inequality gap. I mean, I'll tell you, I mean, I think we all remember a time when we started working and the CEO made 40 times the lowest-paid employee salary. And now it can be hundreds of times the lowest-paid employee. So I think look, looking at inequality wherever it is and thinking more about that as well.
Rob Johnson [00:32:09] I think he made a great point because I think it's a start. Listen, you said that it's a start and sometimes it's some places it's lip service, but I think they've realized if we don't do something meaningful and actionable, we're going to get left behind. Not only is it going to hurt our profit margin, but more importantly, it's the right thing to do. This is the way the world is going now, and I've seen clients that are like, How do we do this? And I'm kind of committed to it, and I've seen other clients that are truly in on this and they have committees and they're doing work on a daily basis to further the cause of equality in all forms and fashions in their businesses. Those are the ones that are going to get ahead.
Yes, it will impact your profit margin because people won't work with you if you don't have a good DIY plan if you're not making sure that you're adhering to principles of equality. But also, it's a better place to work and we get back. Let's circle way back to like retention and recruitment. You're not going to get the best people anymore to work at your company if you're not really doing the work, that is sincere and that's real.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:33:20] Now, that's such a great point, Rob, I just want to jump into because if you look at the Edelman survey, it talks about the real mistrust. People who lack trust are those with low income, they did a study. If you're of higher income, lower-income folks at the lower end are feeling lack, such a lack of trust. And so how are we going to build trust? If that's the question at the bottom, how are we going to bring more trust? It's going to be by also addressing the inequality issues. It's connected.
Eileen Rochford [00:33:48] Absolutely. I agree with you on that. And really no doubt about it. I also kind of want to dig a little into our panelist's expertise and recommendations on what are the best ways that you have seen or would recommend that leaders, particularly these business leaders, can gain that understanding of what their specific constituents really care about and want them to do? What do you think are the best mechanisms to get that information?
Lissa Druss [00:34:23] Well, human relations go.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:34:26] Absolutely, I mean, listen, I was just going to say the same thing. I wish I could say it's some sort of mind-blowing new thing. I think some of it is like the basics are still the things that work. And now that there are more different types of data collection, I think they should be collecting more data on a regular basis and acting on it. So I mean, it's really, how are you when you reach out when you have that town hall when you have when you're starting to work on and put your DEA plans together and you're starting to execute them internally? Getting that feedback? Are we doing it? Are we meeting your needs and just building in that continuous feedback loop?
I think it's really and that ties to empathy, too, because truly, if you're willing to listen to the hard stuff as well as the good stuff, too many people just want to hear the good stuff. Oh, just blow smoke my way and tell me how great I am and how wonderful you saw that great DIY statement I made and that terrific presentation. Are you not dazzled? Well here, listen to the hard stuff to listen to that. You know what? Maybe that student goes further enough. Maybe we're not really seeing enough action quickly. Maybe you need to change some things about whatever policies are in place to really impact me at every level of the organization. I think it's just honesty and empathy and a willingness to hear good and bad. And I don't think all leaders are willing to do that. You look at the different tech now. I mean, I think the tech industry is doing a pretty phenomenal job there at the high end in terms of building trust. If you look at the Edelman survey certain financial services are at the low end. Maybe it's a matter of looking at the different industries that are doing a great job and seeing what they're doing as well. I mean, best practices are still also helpful.
Eileen Rochford [00:36:19] What's interesting?
Lissa Druss [00:36:21] Yes, I think, was I I will go back to old fashioned human relations and get out of your C-suite and talk to people at large pick,10 people in different departments in your company, tell people that you normally don't talk to, and take them out for coffee the next night. No, this is not a job review. This is a review. They help you learn and experience, get to hear people that they normally don't talk to and find out what's what makes them tick. What are the strengths, the weaknesses, the threats, and the opportunities that an employee sees in a company? And if you don't listen, you're never going to hear.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:37:06] It's such a great point. Active listening, real listening, not just like, oh, I check that box off. I had that coffee with that employee team, like you said, it's more it's the active listening.
Lissa Druss [00:37:17] Something that we do often is we conduct assessments for companies. Sure, we're a communications strategy firm, but under that strategy, communication is part of how you operate its whole internally and externally. So we do assessments for companies profits. I'm part of a DOJ assessment for a police department where we go and interview people in a company run by 19-20 people at our client's direction and we ask him these questions and we tell them these interviews are completely anonymous. So just how about a couch? I'm in a shrink. Think this and tell her, tell us everything good, bad, and different because no one's going to know who said it.
I wrote an assessment for a company once and when we finally went through the assessment, two of the top people were like, Oh, I know I said that line. I know how that came for me. And the reality was four people said that same line. But the point is we did an assessment and help them understand their strengths and weaknesses, their threats and opportunities on how to run a company, and what the employees thought, felt, and wanted to see happen. And that was a way of opening up your ears and understanding just for the fact that the CEO wanted this assessment done. Maybe he couldn't sit down with 20 people, but we could. We meant the world to those people that we were interviewing, that the CEO knew that we told them no one. The CEO wants this. So pretend you're talking to the CEO because you're talking to us. For him?
Eileen Rochford [00:38:49] Oh, that's great, great advice for both of you, thank you. I really like the combination of direct feedback, human relations, as you put it aside, and also, the gathering of data, all that's super important. I was struck by a thought, as you both are speaking, that people
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:39:10] are
Eileen Rochford [00:39:11] probably very uncomfortable having conversations like that directly with their leadership teams, and they're not going to be as forthright with what they have to say. But when you put someone like you, Lissa, in that seat gathering the information? Oh, that's a whole other kind of layer of comfort. I'm sure that's brought to their collection of information. That's great advice from both of you. Thank you. I have a short anecdote to share with one client. They're definitely a model of the gathering of input from their employees, particularly in the last five years. They also were recently named to a very prestigious best of list national kind of award in the top 20.
When they were asked to participate once more in next year's collection of information, they declined because it would involve a very lengthy employee survey, and they're already gathering so much information from their employees that they don't want to jeopardize that. They're not willing to go for that award because they want to be able to get the information that they need to be able to do the work that they have underway, which I thought was pretty great. So I just thought I'd mention that it is interesting how now companies are going to have to grapple with the over-serving of their employees who have become a big problem, right? Oh yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:40:41] It didn't do it enough. And now they don't want to do it too much.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:40:43] Now everybody can do it too, with polling on Zoom like I could do. Everybody just totally.
Eileen Rochford [00:40:50] But you do it in the classroom. Yes, right?
Rob Johnson [00:40:53] I think this is a perfect segue way into talking about CEOs more specifically leadership. When considering a job, 60 percent of employees want their CEO to speak out on controversial issues that they care about, and 80 percent of the general population want CEOs to be personally visible when discussing public policy with external stakeholders or work their companies do to benefit society.
What goes into responding appropriate to this dramatic change in expectations from the recruitment perspective? Anybody can jump in here. I think it's very interesting, Eileen and I talk about it a lot, and it's not only building a CEO brand or a leadership brand, but it's also having something to say about important issues because so many people now don't just want to go work for a place and make a good living and do that sort of thing. They want to be invested with people who they have similarities and people that care about the environment or they care about equity, things of that nature.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:41:52] Absolutely, I mean, I didn't want to jump in Lissa.
Lissa Druss [00:41:57] No, you go first on this, OK?
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:41:59] I just because this is so near and dear to my heart, this topic as a professor who's working with young people, trying to transition into communication careers, advertising, PR, social media, all these growing industries and hearing them speak about how important it is to them. I mean, I know students who go in and get these great jobs with a lot of big, high starting salaries and just say I'm probably going to be moving on because I just don't believe in this mission or this cause or I'm. That is always the top question of discussion. Whenever you're talking to students and career counseling, it's like it's not just going to be about a paycheck to me, it's going to be about I have to feel really good about where I'm going every day to work. I see them putting their feet where their mouth is like their move. They will move on if they don't feel that important connection. I know companies know this.
The other thing is our world is so complicated now, and I just feel like we can't not talk about what's happening in Ukraine today and look at the corporate impact looking at what BP did when they withdrew their investment from a Russian oil company. I mean, that was huge and they're going to take a huge profit loss on that with that decision. I don't think we could have expected a corporation to do something like this decades ago. I mean, but today and then looking at Apple and all of the different corporations that operate in Russia are really being called to account. Well, what are you? What are we going to do about this? And they're hearing it from all sides. So I think we live in a world today where. The major corporations have such a major geopolitical impact on so many different aspects of our society that they really cannot not engage on societal issues.
Even in this country, if you look at the aftermath of the brutal killing of George Floyd and so many, so many protesters across the country. Again, that was another conversation where and I think that's where we got to where we are today with Jena and a lot of respect because the conversations were happening locally and people were really wanting to hold their employers accountable to do something. So I don't see these trends going away at all. I see them growing more so, especially with the up-and-coming Gen Z.
Lissa Druss [00:44:35] The thing that gives me pause, and I don't disagree with you, but the thing that gives me pause are the political discussions. And that's where I would absolutely, unless your company is built based on one political platform or another. You don't know who works for you. And to stay quiet in a political discussion sometimes is the best thing to do because you don't want to offend some of your employees. You don't want to. People don't like to be told what to think. They like to make their own decisions, and when you shove something down someone's throat and this is what we're going to do and this is how we're going to do it, that's going to affect morale in one way shape or form because not everyone, unless again, unless a company or an organization has a political slant.
But if let's say General Motors. If you're Motorola, if you're the CEO of a huge Northwestern hospital, you better be careful what you decide to talk about and where because it has gotten people into trouble, especially when they say the wrong thing. How many CEOs that we've seen lose their jobs because they've stepped out and said the wrong thing and I've offended someone. That's a very good business.
Eileen Rochford [00:46:05] No, I was actually just really processing because I was thinking about increasing the examples, a couple examples that Anne-Marie gave. Even BP the example of BP withdrawing their investments. And that's an obvious show of support for Ukraine. Would you consider that political? Lissa, I'm just curious.
Lissa Druss [00:46:34] No. OK, because that affects me. That's just wrong.
Eileen Rochford [00:46:39] Yeah, exactly.
Lissa Druss [00:46:40] That's how I am talking about Republicans, the Democratic, Socialists, and Independents. I'm talking to the root of our economy, the root of our country. And I think because it is in our state, in Illinois alone south of I-80 is a different state. The north of I-80 period full stop. And you think what happened in Illinois, it's that's not easy.
Rob Johnson [00:47:05] That's true. You think about politics being so divisive, it always has been, it's only getting more so, but the whole Ukraine thing is a really great point, and I'm glad you made that delineation list because it feels like most people are unified in what they're seeing and saying, Oh my gosh, I can't believe this is going on. And they're seeing what the leadership in Ukraine is doing, which I think is very impressive. Do you need a ride out of town? And the president is like, Nope, I need ammunition. I mean, that's very impressive. That's a good that's I'm glad that you made that distinction because I think it's important when we're talking about politics in our country and sort of the geopolitical issues going on right now, which are hard to ignore.
Eileen Rochford [00:47:48] Yeah, so I'm thinking of companies taking a stand on the abortion law in Texas, for example. That's a perfect example of a political stance that it sounds like let's say you would always advise not to take.
Lissa Druss [00:48:05] Yeah, unless you are built on that issue, right?
Eileen Rochford [00:48:10] Yeah, it's because most of the time it appears to be far afield of not only your values but just, is that the playground you typically play on?
Lissa Druss [00:48:20] Well, I don't think my rule of thumb, my rule of thumb is politics and religion. Stay out of it.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:48:25] Right. Part of it, too, is if you have, for example, may be low, you're operating in Texas. I mean, I think it gets more complicated and that's why there's no I don't feel like there's no one size fits all because. You have to listen to your stakeholder groups, and I think what we're seeing is the rise of the employee voice as an even more impactful stakeholder group than it's ever been before.
It's never going to be a one-size-fits-all. Depending on the leader, depending on the management team and the type of organization you're leading and how much do you again have that two-way communication with the employees? How much of a voice does the employee have in sorting out your operating principles, for example? And let's get back to values. One of the things we didn't talk about earlier when we were talking about the survey is: What are your values as a company and values that are so unique to every company?
If a company has put something related to women's rights, okay. You can't be a company that says, Hey, we are going to put equality for women and gender at the top of our values list. That's our value. But yet we're going to keep quiet on maybe an issue that is affecting our employees and our stakeholder groups. That would be a huge mistake because you're not living up to your values.I think it gets a little bit more complicated when you, when you think of it that way or maybe it gets more simple, maybe that's actually a way to simplify. It is to say what? What are your values as an organization and is it put through that litmus test instead of like a stake in the ground? We're not going to ever do this well. Does it align with our values or not? I mean, that's the litmus test, I believe, for most organizations.
Eileen Rochford [00:50:22] We concur 100 percent. I'll add to that mission. So bundle those two together, your values and your mission. That's where you start. Everything pretty much passes through there, right? It's going to be increasingly more complex, I think as we move along and I loved the point that you made and about the rise of the voice of the employee. Yeah, I don't think it's going away either. That's something that leaders are really going to have to pay so much more attention to.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:50:52] Actually, with the great resignation, you want that great talent, you want that new talent, you better. It's different. We're different generations here.
Eileen Rochford [00:51:05] The more that you as an organization live, those values clearly identify them, clearly define them in terms of what they mean to you as an organization. The litmus test of the employees that you attract starts there. Right? If you have that so clearly established, then the folks who align with your mission and your values are the most likely to want to come and work for you and stay. So you'll be able to represent what matters to them much more easily because they're kind of in your camp to begin with. That's another school of thought, for sure. I think it's a pretty important thing to keep in mind.
Anne Marie Mitchell [00:51:43] Yeah. And if an organization hasn't gone through that exercise of going through their values and maybe even reevaluating their values, that was actually one of the most rewarding things I ever did at Zarolli Corporation was we were with under Brenda Barnes leadership, who was really one of the most impactful female CEOs, I think ever. And she is so missed today. She inspired me, she was that CEO that left PepsiCo after she had children so that she could raise her children. She had the highest position at PepsiCo North America in the 90s. And for me, that was hugely impactful.
I don't know if you all remember this, but it made such big national news in the 90s that a CEO, a woman who had attained this top position, left her job and people said, Oh, that's the kiss of death. She'll never get back into corporate America. Then she ended up being CEO of Sara Lee Corporation. And so she was like my whole life, my role model. But anyway, she led the transformation in the effort to create values, and I, as an employee, global comms lead, we went through this amazingly inspirational process of the leaders kind of came up with some of their thoughts and we went back and forth with employees all around the globe and ended up a yearlong process using like, very funky, like whatever the technology available at the time was, which wasn't very savvy like today. We were able to have these chats and, and get input on the values and then unveil them. But it was a truly collective process that was immersive and it brought the whole organization together.
It wasn't like we're going to bestow these values upon you employees. It was like everybody had the input and the buy-in to the values. So that is just such a super rewarding process. And I don't know if organizations do that work enough, or frequently enough to say our values still aligned with where we want to be, where we want, where we're heading
Eileen Rochford [00:53:39] and particularly right now, that's very sage advice. Honestly, there's just the tumult, just even over the last two years. But there was a lot that preceded that as well. In the last two decades, if folks haven't done that kind of reevaluation exercise, it does feel like now would be a very important time to put that at the top of your list or at least plan for it in 2023.
Lissa Druss [00:54:06] Mm-Hmm.
Rob Johnson [00:54:07] This has been an unbelievable conversation. I want to thank Lissa Druss of Strategy Consulting and Anne-Marie Mitchell of Columbia College for your amazing insight. Thanks for being with us today. What a great discussion, Eileen and I are. So grateful you're here.
Eileen Rochford [00:54:22] Thank you.
Lissa Druss [00:54:24] Thank you for the topic. A lot of fun.
Rob Johnson [00:54:27] Very important stuff, no doubt. And that is going to do it for another edition of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications,
Eileen Rochford [00:54:37] and I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of The Harbinger Group. We thank you for listening. Remember, you can listen to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Apple, Google, Spotify, all of them. Thanks so much, everybody. Until next time.