Featured Guest Company: Janicek Performance Group — https://janicekperformancegroup.com/
Rob Johnson's Book: Overcommunicate: A Guide for Business Executives and Aspiring Leaders — Overcommunicate: A Guide for Business Executives and Aspiring Leaders: Johnson, Rob: 9798901020999: Amazon.com: Books
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Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Can You Hear Me podcast. I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the Harbinger Group, a marketing and strategy firm, and I'm Rob Johnson, President of Rob Johnson Communications. As companies look to hone their messaging and cultivate their brand, there has never been more focus on executive presence. In other words, do your C-suite leaders meet expectations for how they comport themselves in a staff meeting, board meeting, all hands meeting, or even a media availability? I know, Rob. This is a crucial area that you and I both focus on intently with our clients, for sure, and one that we have delved into a few times already on the show, but there's always more to explore.
That's for sure. We are so fortunate to have an amazing guest expert to lead this whole discussion today. Catherine Janicek is a three-time Emmy award-winning journalist, a Titan 100 CEO, and founder of one of the Midwest's fastest-growing companies, Genesec Performance Group, which coaches executives to show up with clarity, conviction, and authority. Catherine, welcome to Can You Hear Me? Thanks for being here today. Thanks for having me. It's good to see you both here in person, live. It's so great to see you. You, you, you do this. You come across this on a daily basis. This topic with your clients, and it's really great to delve into this with two experts on this. This is great. This is going to be fun. Three experts. Three.
Absolutely. You are amazing.
And I think we normally start off these guest spots by asking if you would give us a little backstory. You know, how did you get here in your career? What has your professional journey been, and that led you to where you are right now with Janusec Performance Group? My story is like a lot of entrepreneurs. I had a career before starting our company. Our company is 12 years old now, and which is unbelievable. I think about it. I, you know, as a business owner, I feel like I'm in a constant startup mode, right? Making sure that we provide whatever it is that the clients need. I was in television for 20 years, and I was laid off. It happened. It it happened in a time where I didn't think it was going to happen. I wasn't, you know, I was in my 30s, and now I look back and I'm like, I'm glad it happened then for sure. And I started the company to focus on media training because every time I would put an expert, a CEO, a celebrity, a spokesperson on our television shows, I would see that they just didn't have the impact that they could have. I would talk to them behind the scenes, I would talk to them on the phone beforehand, and they would have this great story, and then they might fall flat once the cameras went on, and once the lights went on, and the pressure hit, or it's an early morning or a late night, whatever it was, and they just would get in their own heads, or they just would not have that impact that I knew that they could have. And then I felt like, wow, what a waste of time! You know, you're such an expert, and you know so much. And they got up early. They they skipped meetings that they could have been on, all the things, and then they took this time to be on that podcast or on, you know, in my case, on live television. And then I just felt sorry for them because they're such experts, but then they didn't have the impact that they could have. So when I was laid off, I specifically focused on media training, helping someone be better on the Today Show, 60 minutes we've helped folks. You know, MSNBC, Bloomberg News, and then every CEO would say, "Gosh, will you help my entire executive team be better on a stage? You know, an industry panel, or in front of, like Rob mentioned, town halls, or just in front of their teams." And so that's where that executive presence, the public speaking coaching came from. And it's so important, and and it's and it's expanded beyond that. So kind of, I mean, this is media. It kind of starts off with the media training, but you've gone well beyond that. We have because you know what happened was a lot of people, as you both know really well, when someone comes to you and they say, "I would love to be more influential. I would like, you know, to make sure that we have more visibility inside of our company. I want to be on stages. I want to make sure we get our story out. Sometimes, then a part of it is, well, gosh, are you telling the story internally well? Right? Are you telling the story on LinkedIn well? Are you? How are you communicating with people, even in their performance reviews? How are you making sure that you tell the story in your when you're interviewing people. How do you show up as a rock star in front of your people so you retain the best employees? All of that is communications. All of that is leadership comms. So it doesn't end at just media training. We have to make sure that all leaders, whether you're the CFO or the COO or you're the VP of sales or your entire sales team, we coach sales teams.
From coast to coast to make sure they're they're telling the story that you as the CEO want them to tell, and so it really becomes whoever is inside of the company who's telling the story and what is the story they're telling. So, what do you think as you sit here and ponder this? What is the grace challenge when it comes to getting C-suite leaders to embrace the notion that how they present themselves needs to be present in every single thing they do. It's like, well, I'm not going on CNBC, so I'm fine. It's like, no, it's it's all that. How do you how do you make that case? First, I I've had to realize that it's it has to be a business case. So it's not about just this is good. This is you know you you need to sound different. You know whatever it is. First, I always tell everybody how they were born, how they showed up in this world is beautiful, and it's it's exactly. And could you have a bigger impact on this world if we tweak certain things? And then I tie it into the business impact because everybody wants to know. Well, first of all, when when they need to get approval for this, it needs to go through a CFO, right? So how is this going to affect the company? What are the business metrics that we can change. So once we show them how this translates into business metrics, they are really grateful because they just didn't know that how they are delivering a message, how they're making people feel, how they're saying the things that are so smart, how what they know, how that actually ends up to be there. A lot of when I go into biotech firms, a lot of folks in the comms department they understand how why that PhD needs to learn how to communicate to the head, you know, to J.P. Morgan in New York to get more. You know, they need $14 million more. The comms department knowing that is great. That's usually who hires someone like me or our company. But then we need to make the case internally, and we explain it's because you know this is these kind of skills. They're hard skills, and this is what ends up getting that approval for that 14 million in New York with J.P. Morgan. So we can keep doing that great research, right? And a lot of times, when we do show them what they can do to make that bigger impact, we hear, "I wish I would have known this 20 years ago." You know, I wish I would have known this. I wish someone would have told me. You know, why didn't anyone tell me this? So we have to make that case, and then it's a big light bulb moment that happens. There you go. Okay.
There's so many things I want to ask you, Catherine. It's hard to even decide where to go next. But
I think what we should do is maybe delve into examples of how
people you have worked with have best prepared for everything from board presentations to media interviews, like maybe you can. It doesn't have to be specific examples, but maybe walk us through, you know, what they were like before and how you got them to, you know, on the other side of better. Does that sound? I first, I. It's important that you say they're preparing because a lot of people will say, "My gosh, I how am I supposed to tell the board that I need budget for this or I need time because if I made it this far, shouldn't I already know how to do this? Like how? And they're embarrassed. They actually think that this is something that they should know by now. And I got to tell you, and you both know this, Rob and Eileen, you know this. But if you're listening to this, you need to know that everybody trains on this and they practice it and they spend hours getting first practicing it out loud, doing the thing, working on it, getting those reps in, and then when they say they physically have to go somewhere to perform something, they're getting in the room and they're walking the stage. They're practicing it. We do dress rehearsals. A Fortune 500 company hires me. I'll just mention a Fortune 50, a top 15 country in this United States of America, entire executive team. We're walking the stage two days before their annual event, their sales summit. We're doing the. We're literally putting the suit on, putting the lights on, putting the words in the prompter, and we're practicing. And it's so important for just everyone to have the knowledge that this is happening inside of companies, small and the largest companies. This is not something you're just like you know how to do. You may have been a CFO or a COO or the legal counsel, and now you're the CEO. Or you may have been the head of you know sales, and now you're this. Nobody is born with that kind of talent or that kind of magnetism on a stage. It is a learned thing. What's so exciting about it is it's totally learnable. Like it's it's teachable, and and so please don't discount yourself and think like I can't be this person because I don't have this. They were taught how to do it. So first is just you need to know that there's there's hours that go into practicing and preparing for that moment. I'm so glad you talked about the prep because when I deal with clients all the time, I'm thinking about one financial services firm. There's 350 people in there. I've worked with hundreds of them, and out of that whole group, like two people were had photographic memories. Two people could walk in and do it, and the other 348 have to practice. And they're like, they make it look so easy. They practice. So I'm glad that you're explaining the sausage making a little bit because people just think, oh, they just got up there and did that. I should be able to do that. It's like, well, no, they put in, and I'll tell people for a big high stakes moment like a shareholder meeting. Oh, I've been working with that guy for a month and a half. That's why he crushed it. Oh, and you could too. So wait, bravo for that because that's such a key component. I think.
Yeah, yeah, Rob. Like I, when I graduated from college, I wanted to be. I wanted to report. Like, first of all, when you're a kid, that's all you see. You don't see an executive producer. You don't see a general manager. You don't see the news director. You don't see the producer. So I just saw in TV there were reporters and anchors. They really wanted to do that. I went to school for it. I went to Marquette where Eileen went, you know, I I went I went broadcast journalism, and I graduated from college. I had a job the second I graduated in Champaign, Illinois, to cover Springfield, the capital of Illinois. And I, when I first put that camera on, because back then, you know, and still now today, you set up the tripod, you put the camera up, and I how now I had to deliver the bridge. I had to deliver a line that's going to bring the story together. I could not memorize. I could not. I am someone who definitely struggles in front of the camera. I had hives. I had a red face, but it took me so many reps to get to a point where I can just put the camera on and do a YouTube video. But that took time and practice and coaching. I got a lot of coaching, just like I get business coaching to you know to grow our company, but this is super important for people to know that you don't just you're not just born able to learn how to modulate your voice and get excited and and work the stage and have open body language. All that it takes practice. Yeah, the first 200 times I heard my voice, you know, before I went into the biz at the same biz, I I was like, I sound like that. That is awful. It's just you just not you're not used to that. So I totally get where you're coming from. I hated it. Oh, oh my gosh. That's I love that that you're just so willing to share that. You know, it was it's and probably still is. It remains a difficult thing for you, for both of you. That everybody needs coaching is an awesome message. I love that. They do. They do, and people that have self awareness are so much easier to convince of that. So anyway, we we were kind of touching on this a few minutes ago. I asked you a question in kind of a different way, but when we're working with executives, sometimes I see the light go off when they realize that this high stakes preparation we're talking about practice applies to every interaction they have, not just the important ones. So they say, "Well, I'm not going to the big conference, or I'm not going again, CNBC to use that example." But even things like one-on-ones or small leadership team meetings, or you know, might be a sales call, something like that. How do you get across to your clients that it's what we're teaching, what you're teaching, is for every situation? Well, sometimes a lot, a lot of times it's somebody is hiring us to coach the team. You know, CEOs. It's sometimes it happens where maybe smaller founders will say, you know, someone told me to reach out. But most times, you know, in Fortune 500 companies, it's the head of comms is saying, I need you to come in and help, or head of marketing. Right? I'm never hired by a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. It is the head of comms. It's the marketing. Me personally, just it hasn't happened. It's it's gosh, we need to make sure that we coach everybody. And we this there's maybe one person on the team who really needs the coaching, but I'm going to do it like a group coaching kind of thing where we're going to have six people in the room, but we're hoping this one person hears this and sees this because you're going to put them on camera and they're going to see it and they're going to go, "Oh, I didn't know that I do this." So once they see it on camera, they go, "Oh, I didn't know I do this, and I really want to fix this." And then, and then they have a good time. I had this recently happen where I had a president of company, and they're like, "I'm actually enjoying this because I knew they were fighting it. They were fighting it, fighting it. They didn't want it. They never approved the budget for it. And but the team was like, "I really need this person coached." Once we got them in the room and they understood that they saw, they saw the visual, they heard the voice, and they said, "Oh, oh my gosh!" And I showed them, "Here's what how we're going to tweak it. Here's how we're going to change the body language, and then they saw their redo. You know, we're working with this $9 billion construction company next week, and we're we're we're saying like the renovation of you. Like we're doing all these like different words, right? Like Daniel, let's show the renovation if we put on some like whatever, change the windows on a little bit. They're blown away. They're like, my gosh! Like I now I can see and I can hear the bigger impact that I'm going to have on those one-on-ones, and that like that's what whole sales teams that we don't they don't they're not a sales account executive isn't necessarily going to hire people or is not going to be on MSNBC, but they are going to land bigger fish now that they can tweak these things in their delivery and their body language. Yeah, what are some of the things that you see a lot that people are doing that you help them correct? Are there any common things that you're saying? Oh, here we go again. So and so is dropping the every other word. Well, yeah, it's it's it's dropping the ends of their sentences, like literally swallowing the last line when the last word usually in your line is the most important one, and we don't land it. We drop it off. It's like we start really strong, and then we go like this, and then we wonder why people are cutting us off. Like we're not done talking, but we're signaling that we might be done talking, and then we don't land it very. And it sounds like we're not confident. Here's usually it's a breath issue. We focus on breathing, learning how to actually.
With your your diaphragm, your tummy, getting enough air in there. If you don't get enough air in there, you're not going to land each sentence powerfully, and you're going to sound like you're not confident in the company. That's a big problem. They're not going to say like, "Oh, he's not confident himself." They're going to say, "Wow, what is he not psychologically?" They're like, "What is he not confident about? Like, what is he hiding?" So there's that, and then there's a body language thing that I see a lot. Where when a leader doesn't realize he's on stage when he's on stage, he waits to actually kind of pull himself together when he gets in front of the microphone or in front of the podium or in the middle of the stage. But when they walk on, they're literally slouch and they're looking down. When that's the first impression that we're getting of the person, and then you wonder what are the earnings reports going to look like in a month, or what's q4 going to look like? Because he's literally walking on a stage like he would love to be anywhere else, right? And then he kind of comes to the front. He's like, "Hello," you know. But it's like the moment you walk on the stage is such an important moment. So look out to the people, wave, you know, give a fist pump, whatever it is. But the moment you walk past that curtain, you are now on stage. You're in front of your adoring fans, and you're saying something before the moment you even walk. You know, open your mouth. Those are two important things that I'm seeing happen over and over again. Ah, thank you. Okay, um, I have to ask you one more thing, um, before I pass the mic to um my awesome co-host. So the the preparations that you've described, they all sound so powerful. And what I'm wondering about is how they, how all of the preparations or any of them help your clients kind of connect better with their audiences inside and outside of their company. Like, what what do you see changes after these preparations have been made in terms of those connections, you know, with real people who matter inside and outside? If you're if you've done the prep work and you know what you're going to say and you feel really good about it, like you're not nervous, you're not wondering, because what most people do is they're not practicing and then they're kind of they're winging it, right? And so they get up and they're figuring it out as they're up there, and then you don't have the time, and you don't, you cannot, you don't have the mental room to watch body language and go. Are they with me? Do I need to slow it down here? Do I need to tell a story here? Do I need to jazz up my voice a little bit? Do I need to, you know, do I need to change it up because now they're yawning, or I'm seeing them look start open their phones up, you know, or open their whatever it is, and if they start, you can tell when people are literally starting to put together their grocery shopping list or think about something else by watching body language. And if we don't prepare what we're going to say, we can't play up on stage. So we talk about you want to prepare so well so you can play, prepare so you can play because when you're when you're actually speaking, this should be like the time when you're reading body language and you're playing with what you prepared that you were going to say, and that's so important. Or why even be why even be live in front of people if you're not going to have a conversation by watching their eye contact and watching their shoulders slump or an eyebrow go up? Like, oh, that was interesting what he just said, or maybe he's lost because he has no clue what you just said because you weren't concise enough or clear enough or you're using too too many you know internal slogans and stuff that they don't understand so it's important to practice so well so you can play when you're in front of people or the acronyms everybody throws in they have a million acronyms and not everybody knows what they mean and so you lose those people that didn't know what they were right away. You've we kind of touched on it a little bit. We've been kind of going around the the fringes on it, but what you say matters. But the body language we've been talking, you've been talking about body language a little bit here. What it conveys. How important is it for these leaders to remember that you were talking about walking on stage, not realizing they were there, and it's like, oh, you're on stage. You're, you know, when you're, when you're, when they see you, even if the meeting hasn't started, even if it's not a fit, you're on. And so, how important is the body language and also active listening? How big a role does that play in executive presence? Because a lot of a lot of bosses, as I write in my book, they they want to bark out orders, but the most successful ones that I've come across are ones who are good listeners. Yeah. As the older I get, and the more you know, my team grows, and I watch senior leaders who have you know are in charge of 1000s. You realize it's the work you do before you get to the office that's the most important. It's taking care of yourself. It's sleeping. Every leader I talk to says that their sleep does not affect them, and that's a complete. They have no. I did not know, and I'm gonna throw out sometimes can be very controversial. I was always I like my cocktails. I like to drink wine. I like to do all you know all anything, all the things. Right? I did not know how much brain fog that can create. So once I got rid of certain things like that and focused on sleep. Focused on getting out. I when I'm on stages, I like to say I like to get my evil like my evil energy out in the morning. I run as fast as I can to get all the like I say evil spirits. It's like a Catholic thing. I'm like get my evil spirits out in the morning. But like there are there's an immense amount of pressure that is on someone.
Whose responsibility is all the families? These these employees have families, and they have health insurance, and they have dental insurance, and they have all the things, and they have kids that they're sending to college, and they are going to bed at night trying to not let people down. They have so much responsibility. So when they react, it comes from a place of like they're scared, they're anxious, they're nervous, they're going to let someone down, and it's our job as leaders for sure to do the things in the morning, whatever it is. Eat right, not skip meals, not drink too much caffeine, not drink too much alcohol because it can make you know a little anxious. Right, drink enough water so you're not sick. Take care of yourself. Sleep. Do get a concierge doctor if you need to get a concierge doctor, and do all the vitamins and the and the IV stuff, but you have to be an athlete so you can be the best leader you possibly can because that presence all comes from lowering your own anxious energy and being super present and being able to listen so you're not thinking about a million things while you should be present with one person. I'm so glad you brought this up because it was one of the things when I was reading about just your company and your approach and the method that you employ that got me so excited. Which because I'm always looking for what's different, and I think that you just described something that's crucially different about the work that you do. And I think it's so cool that it's you're not just doing communications training; you're doing like whole person presence training and be your best training. It's it just goes so far beyond what I think a lot of us what comes to mind anyway for a lot of us when we think about preparing a CEO for a major talk or
an analyst call or any of the things that we think about. And you just really got into it. That's the real stuff. I'm just so glad you brought it up because
in my training, that's one of the things I talk about, and and so I'm always like, am I on the right path? And it's like, well, Catherine's doing it. Must be right. Oh, how good! Yeah, I'll talk about sleep. You know, so so what's your thing like? Sleep, working out, two or three cups, not 10, of cough. I need caffeine, and I'll even throw in meditation sometimes. You know, too. What's your thing that's going to make you as sharp as you can be when you have that high stakes moment? And so the fact that you were talking about that as a regular piece of what you do made me feel terrific because I'm like, oh, that's what I tell. I'm telling my folks too because it's not just I wake up, I'm sleep deprived, I don't know it, and it it takes preparation for that too, and it's beyond what am I going to say, but what's the whole the whole piece? So bravo! And I love how you put it that it's the work you do before you you know walk into the office that determines how successful you're going to be at you know delivering your messages and everything else you handle. That's great. I love that perspective. I well, I'll tell you, I screwed this up, you know. I worked overnight at at television stations, and I worked. I slept four hours. And when somebody messed up a script or whatever, I was. I didn't have the nicest voice when I asked somebody to edit it. And I knew this was my work to do. And then I, you know, launched this company, and I'm like, I watched these CEOs so fast, so burning burning the candle at both ends, and I'm like, this is what it is. Like you can be such a better leader if you can make these tweaks. So it's not like, oh, I'll sleep when I I retire. You have to do this now in order to make the impact that you want to make. And I saw it with myself, and I knew what I needed to fix. I needed to sleep. I need to stop cocktailing. I needed to focus on this. I wanted to be also. I had a child later in life, and I realized like I didn't want to yell at her. I was not going to yell at her. That was it. Was it was it was a this is a non negotiable. And I knew that for me, I had to do my own work before she woke up in the morning for me to be the right leader for her. And I want to stay married. I don't want to yell at my husband. You know, let's be honest. Like these are good goals. These are like life goals. Like stay married, be a good mom, be a good leader. And every every CEO I coach, most of them are parents also. And this it absolutely affects how they parent and how they talk to their spouse when they come back from a long long road trip. They just need to walk in the house and they need to have a great voice and they need to have great body language, and be ready to take in the hugs and the all the shit that's going to be thrown on them after a long road trip too. And they have to be okay with taking that in too, so they don't ruin the the best partnership they have at home, which is the thing that's going to ruin their work life if they ruin their home life. It all comes together. It's all connected. It always is. Yeah, 100%. But I share your your desire of you know doing getting it out in the morning. I did that too. My kids are a lot older, obviously, than yours, 21 and 24. But I did the same thing. It was if it wasn't done between 5am. and 7am. for me, it didn't happen. So that's and it was became a great happen. Not everybody's part of the 5am. club, and I am not telling everybody to be part of the 5am. But you do it at lunch, do it you know after dinner, whatever works best for you. But you have to do it. Yeah, you really have to do it. No doubt, it's all important. Okay, guys, we are having the best show. Okay, so next, we always love to ask our guest experts for before we wrap up last, you know, bits of advice.
And another thing we love to ask for is resources that you recommend, books, people you may pay attention to on LinkedIn or YouTube or whatever. Lay it on us. We we want to learn. I think people think that they have. You know, I would love folks to find a good coach. Like, okay, so first of all, not all advice is. I mean, how often do you two get approached by someone says like, um, I'm told that my voice sucks, or I need to work on this, or whatever, and that like is bothering them for a long period of time, and they they don't want to do the media interview or whatever they got. So not all advice is great, but it's good to get some coaching. And I I will tell you, you probably know a lot more than you give yourself credit for. So I think for everybody listening to this podcast, grab your iPhone or your Android or whatever. Record yourself talking, and if you don't want to look at it, I get it. First of all, like Rob and I both shared, like not every 99.9% of people don't love the sound of their voice. I've never once had an expert who said, "Put me in front of the mic. I love my voice." Like nobody likes their voice. So you have to be like a complete narcissist to be like, "I just want to talk all day, right? So if you, I would, but I want you to hear what your voice sounds like because we all commit. I committed it this morning. I had my Monday morning huddle with my team, and I was kind of fired up about something. And I'm like, oh, my voice sounds terrible. So I like start a smile. Like I really want to deliver this in this way. I want everyone to know, like this is why I'm talking about this, right? So record yourself. Deliver. Do you have a meeting coming up that you need to deliver some information that's good, bad? You need to do your elevator pitch at a networking event. Record yourself on your iPhone and then put it down and just listen to it. Does it sound like a voice that you want to keep? Would you talk to it? You know, I mean, for the I don't know about anybody else, but like I've had a lot of first dates, and I'm like, I don't want to hear that person for the rest of my life. So the voice is really important. So do you like the voice you hear? And then, and then you know, maybe the next day watch it. But that when the sound out off, so you can see your body language. Does your body language look positive? Does it look exciting? Does it look like something that absorbs and is magnetic and inspirational? We and give yourself some coaching. Like one tweet. Don't rip on yourself. Don't say like, "Oh," because everybody I put in front of a camera says I need to lose 20 pounds. I'm like, no, you know what? No. Okay. So just first of all, you're great how you are. But what's one thing that you want to work on? Okay. Now I'm going to start smiling when I speak. I'm going to, you know, whatever it is. But just give yourself one coaching point, and just work on that for like 30 days, and then maybe there's something else. You know, maybe it's filler words you want to take out of your language. You don't like the fact that you say like a lot, or another filler word. But just give yourself one thing to work on, and don't watch a bunch of people, other people, do things because there's a lot of bad out there. You know, and I don't want you absorb stuff that's not great because I. Everyone always says like you know who's your favorite public speaker and I and I don't like to give examples because I don't want everybody to sound like I mean I was on an American Airlines flight a couple weeks ago and the pilot I swear to God was Barack Obama like a lot of people are like Barack Obama is the best public speaker in the world now everybody wants to sound like Barack Obama, and he had in this pilot did all the things that, and so no one should copy other people. Just see what you do, and then is there a way you can tweak yourself to be more impactful? Be authentic to yourself. That's exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, that's excellent. That is great advice. We could keep going and going, and I wish we could. Catherine, thank you so much for joining us, CEO and founder of Janasek Performance Group. We appreciate you being on the podcast so much. Thanks for having me. This was fun. I could talk to you all day. Oh, good. I'm glad you had a great time. It's been awesome chatting with you today and learning from you. Okay, everybody. Thank you all for listening. Thanks to Catherine for being here. I'm Eileen Rochford, and if you would like to comment on the podcast, or maybe suggest a new topic for us, which we love. Just contact us at our "Can You Hear Me?" podcast page on LinkedIn, or check out our newsletter, which is also awesome.
And you'll find both of those on our LinkedIn page. So we'll drop that in the show notes for you, so you can find it nice and easy. Absolutely. And I'm Rob Johnson. If you liked what you heard, please consider giving "Can You Hear Me" a positive review wherever you get your podcasts, such as Apple or Spotify. It helps other listeners find this podcast. And please check out the website at CanYouHearMePod.beam.ly.
Thank you so much for listening.