Where have our manners gone? At the start of the pandemic, there was a call for support and humanity for your fellow man and woman. But as workers have returned to the office, many times on hybrid schedules, they seem to have lost their interpersonal touch. General rudeness in the workplace? Check. Being ghosted by clients? Check. Underdressed for the big meeting? Check. Bonding with colleagues? Forget about it. Join co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford for the latest episode of the “Can You Hear Me?” podcast, where they ask, “Can’t we all just get along? (In the office)."
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Eileen Rochford [00:00:48] Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of the Can You Hear Me podcast. I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the marketing and strategy firm The Harbinger Group.
Rob Johnson [00:00:58] And I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications. You know, we spend a lot of time exploring the employer-employee relationship, especially regarding return to office protocols and the dynamic of the hybrid work model. With all of that in mind, we bring you Can You Hear Me? Episode 31: "Can't We All Just Get Along in the Office?"
Eileen Rochford [00:01:19] You know, Rob, I was recently reading an article and this one was in the Wall Street Journal. It's titled: "What the BLEEP Happened to Our Manners at Work." It's by Callum Borchers, I believe, and this article raised a ton of interesting issues related to getting along in the workplace. Honestly, the news is not good according to this piece. More cursing, less handshaking, quitting on short notice or no notice, taking forever or maybe never returning emails, text, slack messages, and all sorts of internal communications. So, it painted a really bleak picture. And what do we do here? We talk about best practices in business communication. We saw this as a perfect opportunity for us to delve into; what the heck is going on, maybe a little of the why this is happening, and really talk about what we can do about it and what do we have, you know, within our control that we can make the situation better for all of us. So that's what we're going to do today. But I'm going to start-
Rob Johnson [00:02:24] And what is the why do you think?
Eileen Rochford [00:02:25] That's the why. That's what I'm jumping into right now. So and this isn't comprehensive by any stretch. But you know me, I read one article and then I want to go read, you know, 30 more things that give me even more information about what the heck is going on. So this is a piecing together of that why. Essentially increased isolation and loss of social skills. Those things are all due to the pandemic and we read a lot about- that's occurring. That it's a, you know, kind of a byproduct and outcome of those two issues where things are very, very, very, very different for so many of us. And during that time, we experienced a prolonged period of being in kind of threat mode, fight or flight mode. It's been triggered and it's going to be really hard to turn that off. Now, let's look at today, right now, all these other things that are going on. And, you know, some of these things even happened throughout the two years that we've just endured together. But right now, we've got war. That's terrifying, right? So that's really keeping us up at night and jacking up the stress levels and the anxiety levels. We've got inflation and we've got a very real recession threat that continues to loom and today's stock market performance plunges into a bear market. Another bad thing, right? We've got a housing crisis. Really hard to find starter homes in particular. And so right now, nobody predicted what was going to happen to the housing market, but it's going to be pretty bleak for the next year. We've got the climate crisis that's, you know, just going on in the background. But the hurricanes that are coming out on the shores of Florida by Wednesday are another severe weather incident. Those have been going on, right? There's this chasm that's widening, separating the haves and the have nots. And then we had poor behavior by a four year president who modeled really bad behavior, rudeness, rejection of social norms, etc., etc., that normalized a lot of that behavior. I think that's a big thing to take note of. Also right now, we continue to have these terrible staffing shortages, the supply chain logjams, all kinds of bad things happening in the labor market. So you put all that together and we've got a pressure cooker situation and I really can empathize with, you know, human beings at large and understand why a lot of this is happening. So there there we have it. That's our why. That's our context.
Rob Johnson [00:05:12] Yeah, I was going to bring that up a little later, but I think it goes really well with the way you've just sort of framed this whole discussion, Eileen, which is, you know, it all starts during the pandemic when everybody's isolated and everybody's going through something unprecedented. And, you know, we have a shared experience and we're all going to be nicer to each other and just be kind and things of that nature. And, you know, now you see, you know, everywhere you go, you know, whether it's a restaurant or another place of business, it's like be kind and it's because we've forgotten to be kind. It's like we went the other way. We understood that the only way we were going to get through it or one of the most important ways to get through it was to show some grace and be kind. And people did that for a while and then they were like, "Enough, enough. I just I need to do what's right for me." But then that sort of morphed into this whole general rudeness that people think is okay. And going from zero to flying off the hook in two and a half seconds, you don't even graduate to it. It's like something happens and people respond and- you know, not everybody- but a lot of times people respond very angrily, very quickly and it escalates things in no time flat. And then the next thing you know, you're like, well, how did that happen?
Eileen Rochford [00:06:28] Yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:06:29] Yeah, I think that's an area.
Eileen Rochford [00:06:31] It is and lots of psychologists that I read who are, you know, trying their best to jump in and provide some comfort and guidance. A lot of psychologists, you know, they kind of chalk that up to displaced anger. In the pandemic, we had multiple forms of loss of control, right? Maybe you had loss of control over your job. Maybe you had loss of control because you were terrified and your health was directly threatened by this disease. And people who didn't adhere to the protocols threatened you personally. And so you harbor a lot of resentment from that or the converse you feel that you had your individual rights taken away because you had to adhere to these protocols. And there's just a lot of pent up frustration and sustained frustration. And that's where we get this displaced anger that errupts.
Rob Johnson [00:07:28] And then you just gave everybody about ten reasons why people might be doing it. I mean, there's so many stressful things. It's like-
Eileen Rochford [00:07:36] They're triggers, yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:07:37] Whether we're through with the pandemic or not, we've certainly entered a different phase of it, which is the endemic, which is this is something we're going to have to live with and we're going to have to be smart about it. But we're no longer doing mass isolations and things of that nature. That's not where the world's going right now. So that part's behind you- it's like, okay, "that's behind me, I think." But then you have all the other things and the inflation and the interest rates. And every time they bump up interest rates, which is what they need to do to slow down inflation, the market loses you know, astounding amounts of money and gas has been going down, going down, going down. And I noticed this past weekend it went up $0.30, just went up $0.30 again! I mean, it's still really expensive.
Eileen Rochford [00:08:26] Volatile.
Rob Johnson [00:08:27] And so you pointed out the reasons for the pressure, but it's real and it's there.
Eileen Rochford [00:08:33] Yeah, we are definitely in this pressure cooker situation and each time something happens to one of us, we could have a flare up, if you will. That, you know, is just like an eruption of displaced anger. And that's not good in the workplace, which is what we're here to talk about today. The evidence of weirdness. You know, it's like animals coming back together and having to learn how to cohabitate is kind of what we're experiencing. Even if it's just the two days a week when you're in the office and if you're in a hybrid situation, everyone's encountering these kind of bizarre behaviors that seem foreign to us, but they're adaptive behaviors that we've all developed over that time of sustained isolation. Now, as we get back together, we have to sort through as managers, as employers, as just employees working with other employees on our team. How do we deal with all this? That's the big question that we grapple with today.
Rob Johnson [00:09:41] And I think that it's a really important way to sort of set the tone for this whole discussion. When you're just mentioning The Wall Street Journal article, "What the Blank Happened to Our Manners at Work" by Collum Borchers, that you referenced, and people get a chance to read it. It came out in the past few weeks. I would urge everybody to do it because I think it really puts good context around this issue. One of the issues that was raised in this article was by a sales rep who was quoted for the article about being ghosted by clients. That's when you may have a proposal, scope of work, or maybe have sent an email detailing the next steps and you get... Crickets. The sales rep said that he often sends an email saying something to the effect of, based upon not hearing from you, I assume you've gone in another direction. Now, my experience, when I don't hear back from a potential client for several weeks, I send out that exact email. But it's not always what you think. So I've sent that out a couple of times recently and I'm like, I haven't heard for, you know, an inordinate amount of the time. I would say six weeks, not hearing anything, not even, "hey, you know, we're doing this, we're doing" whatever. And then they'll say, "Oh, no, this happened. And we had to push it back a little bit. We're still you know, you're still in the mix, whatever." And I still believe that I am to get this sort of business. But couldn't you have sent that earlier? I guess the answer is no. That's not what people are doing right now. People are just blowing you off and not communicating, and that's okay. And in my world, that's never been okay and never will be okay.
Eileen Rochford [00:11:08] Right? Yeah. I have witnessed somewhat of a slowdown in response, but I do see a wide variety of ways of that, people, prospective clients in this case are handling their situations. Some are wonderfully courteous and keep us totally apprized of internal developments that may have slowed their timeline. Even though they can't take any into action and move things forward, they're still making sure that we're in the loop. And that's smart, in my opinion, on their end, because if they keep us in the loop, then we'll continue to keep their pending work requests in mind as we're staffing up or, you know, just readjusting staffing, and then we'll still be able to accommodate them. But when you think about it from our perspective as a marketing agency, if someone raises a need, we attempt to respond and be available and, you know, adjust things on our end, but then don't hear from them for 4 to 6 weeks and they come back and suddenly think that they're able to activate our team to be a partner. That's just not possible.
Rob Johnson [00:12:20] What was happening the last 4 to 6 weeks, right? You're probably like, what did you think was happening?
Eileen Rochford [00:12:24] Yeah. So it's smart for prospective clients to make the extra effort to be organized and prioritize communicating status with any prospective partner because you could be completely shut out of this. Due to staffing shortages alone right now, we could turn someone away, you know, at the drop of a hat in a way that maybe we wouldn't have in the past. I mean, just staffing shortages in the marketplace, right? So that plus the spike in demand for marketing support from resources like ours means it's harder. It's harder once you get in line if you want to preserve your place in line. The way to do that is to be courteous and communicative and keep your prospective partners in the loop on what's going down.
Rob Johnson [00:13:15] And aside from that issue that you just raised, which is very real, there's the other thing of, you know, a lot of times what we're doing is content creation and it's a collaborative process and it requires buy in and people to weigh in regularly. And so the other side of that coin is if you don't have people that are communicating with you on a regular basis and you are doing work with them, your ability to do good, timely work is minimized because you're not communicating. And so I think there's two important factors on this whole issue. And the other thing is, aside from, "hey, you may have to wait in line longer because, you know, you didn't communicate with us for six weeks", which is what you were talking about, "and you got to wait in line now." It's also; if we are doing the work and we're trying to get by in and we're trying to get feedback and it's nothing, nothing, nothing. Silence, silence, silence. That is not the way to be collaborative.
Eileen Rochford [00:14:11] No, I totally agree. I mean, I think all of us agree with you on that point, yeah. So another thing that was raised in this article that I just want to mention, because it leads to a point that supports what you've been saying. Rob. In the article, I believe Callum mentions this kind of erosion of- I don't know. What did he call it? It's etiquette related but it's more, like, courteous. Like, you know, the norms of kind of social behaviors, if you will. We know things are taking longer and there's a million reasons why they're taking longer. Whether it's supply chain issues or other pressing things that have come up in front of an organization, that means you have to be super agile and respond to that. And so the thing that you were going to take up perhaps with your marketing partner is deprioritized. There's a million reasons. The things are just taking longer. Heck, it takes longer, you know, to get your coffee at Starbucks than it ever did before. Like, that's just wild. Like, it's everywhere.
Rob Johnson [00:15:15] One of the things I learned when I first got into the consulting business. So this is unique to what I do or what we might do, is I would reach out to somebody on something that was fairly important and I wouldn't hear back and at first its like "why'd they ghosted me?" You know? So the other part of what we were saying earlier, too, is why were they ghosting? Then all of a sudden you realize, oh, they had 17 other things to do and guess who they get to last? When it comes time to talking about projects and the way forward, that sort of thing, the consultant, the person, that's not the full time employee. And so I've learned that and I've not put myself through the ringer so many times because of it and it's been helpful. Is it rude? I don't know if I can say it in that particular instance it's rude, but it is- you feel like, "man, I haven't heard. What's going on, what's going on, what's going on?" And then all of a sudden one day, you know, to your point, maybe a little bit earlier, but they're not asking, "hey, let's get it going in 6 hours. It's like, hey, moving forward, we want to go full steam ahead, you know, and we're ready to go." But "I've been dealing with all these other things," and by I, I mean the person that I'm dealing with from my client. So I think that's an important factor to raise as well.
Eileen Rochford [00:16:26] It is. And to your point about rudeness, you're right, it's not directly rude. That's undeniable. It's not. But you know what, it isn't? It's not gracious, it's not courteous, it's not respectful.
Rob Johnson [00:16:41] No it's not.
Eileen Rochford [00:16:41] And I believe that one of the biggest takeaways from this whole situation is, you know, etiquette norms may change and they should! Come on, so many good things have come out of the lessening of the rules and regulations throughout, you know, pandemic life. So many, many good things. But at the same time, there is never a reason to not be respectful, particularly in a professional environment. That's just ridiculous. So above all else, I think if we all can reflect on that context that I walked us through at the start of this conversation and really remember, we've been through a lot. Each and every one of us. It's trauma- that's sustained trauma. There are impacts from that. And I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist, so take this a grain of salt. But I think we all understand what sustained trauma looks like now, having actually experienced it ourselves and recognize that there's a whole lot of grace that's required. It's going to be years before we come through this and behave in ways that maybe feel more normal. And I hate that word, but, you know, typical might be a better way to describe it. So in general, falling back on respectful behavior at all costs is going to be your right choice. If that means you got to take a beat and you got to think about it, then do so. You know, take those ten breaths before you hit the reply button. So, yeah, just be patient, be supportive, be respectful. That's general guidance in life, but especially right now. It's a really big deal.
Rob Johnson [00:18:33] Agreed.
Eileen Rochford [00:18:33] So, yeah. So speaking of, you know, perceived rudeness and etiquette and that awesome Wall Street Journal article mentioned, you know, the presence of etiquette police in the office, sometimes their presence, if you have a culture where there are a few of those people around and are harping on these kinds of things, then, you know, the dynamic can be a lot worse. One topic that we're hearing that they like to take aim at is the dress code in the office. So we can talk about that. That's a fun one, right? Y'know, are things like ties still required? I don't even know many places where they are, but maybe it's a collared shirt and jacket, you know, what's your norm, right, when it comes to like getting together in these more important in-person meetings? And what can you get away with when it's virtual, not just dress code, but like overall behaviors, right? Let's talk about that. What are you seeing, Rob?
Rob Johnson [00:19:43] Well, when I left the TV business three and a half years ago, I quit wearing ties. I haven't worn a tie. And this is before the pandemic. I've worn a tie and that long. But I do. I do dress appropriate based upon who the client is. So if I'm working for one of my best clients at a midcap financial services firm, I go in there, I have a suit, open collared shirt, you know, nice shoes and that's what I look like if I'm dealing with another group, another client, another great client who's more casual. I wear slacks, you know, like an oxford shirt, you know, no suit, tie, you know, and none of that. And maybe I'll wear kicks. I mean, so it just depends on who I'm dealing with. And certainly in person, I'm always going to be dressed a little bit nicer. That doesn't mean that on a Zoom meeting, I'm going to be in a t shirt and I mean, I might be in shorts, but you can't see those.
Eileen Rochford [00:20:38] That's the beauty of zoom.
Rob Johnson [00:20:40] Exactly. From the waist up, I'm going to look professional based upon who I'm dealing with and based upon the fact that I'm on a Zoom call. So I'm not suggesting that everybody dress down on that, but there are different rules. And I've talked about this a lot with people that I train. Where's the meeting? Who are we meeting? Who's your audience? Who's your audience- I talk about that all the time. And this is relevant in this regard as well.
Eileen Rochford [00:21:04] So the flag here is mirroring, right? Do your homework if it's a new environment for you and say, you know, you're in a sales situation. You haven't been in front of, you know, a particular organization. Do your homework and find out what's their norm and mirror their norm because that's just, you know, it's respectful. It demonstrates, you know, your insightfulness and lots of other important things. So I think that it's a very, again, I'm going to use that word a bunch of times, I think, on this show, but it is very basic. But yeah, sounds like we need a little reminding about some of those basics, right? At least the ones you want to keep because there's a bunch you want to throw out.
Rob Johnson [00:21:44] So what would you do in a scenario where, let's say you're ina a virtual call, for instance, or no, let's say it's in-person because we're back to it more in-person than we were. And people are still used to, you know, the sort of casual way of virtual meetings. But you're back in person and somebody is not dressed the way that you would expect them to. Is there a thing that you would employ? Is there something you would say? Some sort of expectation you would put forth? Like, how do you deal with that? Like, if somebody's not getting the message, how do you get them the message without embarrassing them or coming off as like heavy handed or whatever?
Eileen Rochford [00:22:21] Yeah. Well, first of all, we would never address it in the moment. That's just not anything to ever be done. We know that you do it in private and in the after the moments pass. But within, you know, very close proximity to the occurrence so people don't forget is also another really important thing for positive communications. I think what I would do is I would just say, you know, I was expecting that you would be aware because of the guidance that we gave, that this was a really important meeting. And we had hoped that you would maybe step it up a bit in the dressing department, because we want to demonstrate to this client their importance to us. And when you dress up and you're a little snappier and sharper in your dress, that, I believe, sends the message of respect and that they're important to us. Again, that's the kind of thing that I might say.
Rob Johnson [00:23:20] It's good and it's subtle and it's not done, as you mentioned, it's not done right away. It's done later. And it's you setting expectations for what you want to see in the workplace, especially as you're dealing with clients. And now it's happening more and more back in person again. And people have forgot. They got real comfortable with what they were doing at home.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:41] They've loosened up. Yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:23:43] And that's not always a bad thing. But in this particular case, though, the mirroring thing is a perfect point that you're making.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:50] Yeah, I will say it's really interesting because, you know, again, our firm is almost entirely remote. You know, 90% of the time we have started to do much more in-person stuff, much more compared to six months ago, right? It's funny to say that it's still not a lot, but even in our remote interactions with clients, because I see them more present in their own, you know, real world working environments, they're going in and often now they're on calls with us and it's obvious they're at their office and they've dressed accordingly. And because they're doing so, I've actually started really stepping up even my okay, let's say above the waist, you know. Yeah, yoga pants just on the bottom. Absolutely. I'm not giving up comfort.
Rob Johnson [00:24:40] No, of course.
Eileen Rochford [00:24:41] I won't even stand up if I have to, right? I'm joking. But on the top, I am increasingly, especially in the last month or so, other than the long vacation that I was on, that was awesome. I'm wearing blazers, jackets, you know, smarter sweaters with collared shirts, like going the extra mile because I never want them to think that we don't take working with them as seriously as they take their job. Do you see what I mean?
Rob Johnson [00:25:15] But it's mirroring and it's knowing your audience again.
Eileen Rochford [00:25:17] It is, yeah, that mirroring. And some people just intuitively pick up on those things. Some people don't. And some people just need to be reminded if that's what your organization needs of them. Right? And that brings up another point, which is and this advice comes from a chief human resources officer that I know pretty well. They said that right now it's really, really important to remember that the pandemic days and ways are behind us. And it's okay to expect our team members to have things like very productive, professional work set ups, even if they are still working at home or on the days when they're working at home. It's okay to expect that and communicate that as an expectation and define for them what that looks like in your company's view or from your company's viewpoint. It's okay to do that and to just point out maybe behaviors that during the pandemic, when things were just kind of being worked out and we were super duper flexible with great reason about, you know, we understood life was going on in the background, you know, while we were working at home and it was all right. And we smiled. You know, they hit the mute button, dealt with the baby in the background. All those things were A-okay. But, you know, now the pandemic days and ways are behind us. So communicating what does, you know, a professional work background look like even when you're on Zoom, right? It's time to do that because these behaviors, you know, according to this expert, they're going to become normalized very quickly if you don't address it. Now, at the onset, these are early days of back at it, RTO, right, and whatever form that's taking. Even in a company like mine where we are completely still remote, we will be having conversations about, "hey, we got to step it up.". Just like I was saying, like I've observed, clients are really more put together now. Things are super buttoned up, their schedules are packed again, like in major ways we have to respond and behave accordingly. And that includes kind of what we look like in terms of attire. So I just want to bring that up. And so her whole be clear about your expectations, be consistent in upholding your standards and hold your people accountable in supportive ways, constructive ways, and above all, model the behavior that you expect. And that's one of my favorite things. I've always heard that in life, and I've kind of subscribed to that school of thought. But to hear this chief human resources officer use that as a guideline, that was just yesterday morning. It was a piece of advice that I, you know, grabbed mentally and and said, I'm going to share that with our listeners when we record.
Rob Johnson [00:28:37] And if you put it in different terms, it's the old adage about like, if you want respect, you have to show respect. So it's the same idea.
Eileen Rochford [00:28:45] Sure, same idea.
Rob Johnson [00:28:45] And it's very important. Okay. I want to get into this because it's not great- grammar. Our syntax, punctuation and ability to communicate via the written word, they have eroded. And I have one word to begin this solution, the discussion about the solution and that is Grammarly. Hugely helpful.
Eileen Rochford [00:29:07] Again. Basic.
Rob Johnson [00:29:09] You said that word again. I know it is. It is basic. And I will say this, it has gotten worse. And a lot of times, you know, when you can't be in person and you communicate more and more via text or via email or whatever the case may be, you know, sometimes you get texts and you as the letter u, and your "ur" "r u", you know, that sort of thing. But sometimes it's been sneaking up into like official emails and that just simply can't happen. I will also say this as it relates to a former journalist, and that is, you know, because you and I, when we talked about this before we were on the recording, you said, well, didn't you learn that in school? And the answer is yes. But in TV we would write punchy, we would write, you know, as somebody would talk not as, you know, not as flowery as as perhaps we could. And then Grammarly is so helpful and it was such a simple bit of advice that I got from somebody and I started using it and I realized even the simple emails weren't quite- they were almost there, but they weren't quite there. And it's a minor investment to make, to have excellent grammar and to look like you care. And again, you were talking about the way you look vis a vis a client. And if you're communicating in a very poor and sort of informal way, you're also saying, "I don't take you seriously." So in terms of, you know, dressing the part again, that also shows respect, as does, you know, using the proper grammar and making sure that your syntax and punctuation and everything is on point.
Eileen Rochford [00:30:52] Excellent point and very good advice. And I'll add on to this that you may think you're only communicating with the person to whom you've addressed the email, but remember that email can and very likely would be forwarded to others in the organization. So no matter the casual, close nature of your relationship with the person to whom you've directly addressed the email, you have to acknowledge that's a piece of communication that could be and likely would be shown throughout, you know, expanded aspects of their communication team.
Rob Johnson [00:31:26] Just assume that lots of people are going to see it even if you send it to one person.
Eileen Rochford [00:31:30] Be mindful of how that reflects on you.
Rob Johnson [00:31:30] Yeah, it does.
Eileen Rochford [00:31:31] It totally does. So very important. And I'm really glad that you brought that up. I will admit I am guilty of using a "LMK" (let me know) in Slack. But I will say, you know, getting back to that point from Borchers's Wall Street Journal article about erosion of etiquette- and maybe some of this stuff should go by the wayside, I'm open minded to that idea that things become outdated, things evolve. They always do. So in internal usage. I'm okay with casual phrases internally.
Rob Johnson [00:32:11] Yeah, that's not a big deal. I don't think it's a big deal internally.
Eileen Rochford [00:32:14] Certainly. But that depends on the culture of your organization, right?
Rob Johnson [00:32:19] Right. But if you wonder about your audience externally, meaning a client or potential client, and you don't know their reaction, you need to air on the side of probably formality. But internally, I think it wouldn't be the worst thing if some of those things went by the wayside. As you just mentioned.
Eileen Rochford [00:32:35] They're shorthand, slang, right? Like we use that when we talk to one another. So why wouldn't you do that on your Slack channel? But I will just say it depends on the culture of the organization. Like if you are an intern or a recently hired brand new, you know, entry level person at an organization, I wouldn't go charging in there, throwing your "LMK"s around.
Rob Johnson [00:33:02] No. No chance.
Eileen Rochford [00:33:03] Right. Until you've kind of assessed, you know, this the lay of the land. How does everyone talk to each other? You know, really study that first. Keep it more formal, I guess, and professional initially and certainly with good grammar. And then see, as you get settled in, is some of that more acceptable? So yeah, just survey the situation before you drive in with your casual talk. Okay, so here's another one thing we want to talk about, because it's fun and it also is, I think, generational. Yeah, we can call it that. So we've read in a few places that millennials are indicating that they have absolutely little interest in bonding with their coworkers outside of office hours. Heck, I don't blame them. But that's something that has been a staple, you know, for a while in, you know, work life of all sorts, all kinds of jobs. You go grab a beer after work and sit around, socialize, maybe commiserate a little bit, you know, shoot the pool, throw some darts, all that kind of stuff. And honestly, I know coming up in the early say, first ten years of working, that was one of the better perks of work, certainly one of the more enjoyable parts of work, because lots of us made our lifelong friends there in addition to maybe making some in college, right? And that's the way things were done but, what's been reported in these surveys is millennials just- they're not having it. They don't care. They want to go. They literally want to give the time that they have outside of work to themselves, their families, friends they already have. Socializing with coworkers is just something that they see as another thing they're being told to do and that they don't enjoy doing. And that's pretty wild.
Rob Johnson [00:35:09] That also speaks to the whole like 9 to 5 nature of how so many people- and I'm not going to say all young people because some older people do to- view their jobs. So it's like now I'm done and I'm finished. And for me, it's always been like, you know, you do the little things. And is that one of the little things? Is that going to make or break you? Maybe not.
Eileen Rochford [00:35:30] No.
Rob Johnson [00:35:30] But is it one of the little things that's going to help you develop relationships that you need? Absolutely. So no, there's no requirement you should do it. And I understand the younger generation feels that way and they can feel however they want to. But for somebody like me, I always felt like, you know, not that I'm going out drinking with clients or coworkers all the time or whatever the case may be. But you know, moments like that have meaning.
Eileen Rochford [00:35:57] Yeah, they do.
Rob Johnson [00:35:58] They do, even if there's a generation of people that don't see it.
Eileen Rochford [00:36:00] I'll submit here that what this means for employers is, you know, this isn't a finger pointing moment. This is a realization moment like, oh, if we value those interactions that are social in nature, then you're going to have to make room in your workday for those things to happen. And if it means, you know, quarterly social events to have, you know, an entertainment element to them where people are just hanging out and that's treated like any other workday. But you're paying them to socialize and to get to know each other and solidify their relationships and build bonds of trust and things. So be it. You know. If it's important to you as an organization, then it can still be done. It doesn't have to be done after work hours.
Rob Johnson [00:36:51] CEOs have to be creative. And listen, you can speak to this very well because you're having these moments with your staff and your workers and their coworkers. And so you have to figure out, how do I make this work? So it's enticing. So they do want to come be a part of it, because the other part of it is too, especially when a lot of people started jobs during COVID and there was a complete disconnect. Moments like that have value. So I'm not suggesting you're missing out, and, you know, look and listen to me and I'm all knowing or anything like that. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that the difficulty of being isolated can be offset by the fact that you do some little things here and there. You not to go out with them every night after work. But occasionally, you know, you get to know somebody. You get to bond with somebody, you learn something about them. And it helps you not only be a good person, but it helps you, I think, be a good professional too, because you can retain that information and at various times understand how people tick.
Eileen Rochford [00:37:53] Yeah, no doubt about it. You know, it's funny. Maybe that's what's driving the higher rate of interest among millennials versus other, you know, currently working generations. Like Gen X, the millennials have higher return to office interest. They want hybrid. They want to go. They want to be there.
Rob Johnson [00:38:18] Right.
Eileen Rochford [00:38:19] So that's pretty wild, right? They want to have the interactions at work, but they don't necessarily feel it's important or needed to socialize, grab a beer, do something after work. Yeah, but they want to have the interactions at work. That's pretty interesting isn't that?
Rob Johnson [00:38:37] Well, that's encouraging.
Eileen Rochford [00:38:39] Yeah, it is totally encouraging. I think that also backs up what I was saying. Employers just have to make the moments during the workday like they're not expecting that it's going to happen organically after work. Yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:38:51] Of course. Okay. So we pointed out the "can't we all get along?" issues and the difficulty of making your point sometimes in the workplace. But there was one bit of positive news here in the Wall Street Journal article. LinkedIn's etiquette course has an enrollment 127% higher than a year ago. That's huge. That speaks to not only self-awareness, but desire many have to address what they may see as shortcomings. So how do you become a better person? How do you grow as a human being? You have to have self-awareness. You have to say, you know what, I could do better in this area. I could do better in that area. And if 127% more people are taking the etiquette course, that means they're going, "you know what, I maybe need to brush off a few of the tactics that I need to use to be a force in my office and to be a good coworker." So that that's some good news.
Eileen Rochford [00:39:44] The light bulbs are going off that, "oh, this doesn't feel good, I'm not getting a good reaction when I'm doing things, shucks, what can I do about that?" I know. But, you know, I don't blame them. Like we started this with a whole explanation of things that led to getting us to where we are right now. And if you're isolated for that long without typical social interactions, yeah, your skills are going to get pretty dull fast.
Rob Johnson [00:40:16] Yeah, that's a safe bet.
Eileen Rochford [00:40:18] So dusting off the LinkedIn etiquette course and just to remind yourself the things that maybe, you know, your kindergarten teacher or your parent told you as you were coming up is a great idea. I'm glad to see people are doing that. That's really important.
Rob Johnson [00:40:34] It is. That is.
Eileen Rochford [00:40:36] So overall, you know, my takeaways from reflecting on all this are, one, it's okay to eliminate some of these social norms or what people used to call, you know, rules of order, ways to behave. I don't know that they all need to be around with the rigor that they did before. And we certainly don't need etiquette police. So just chill out.
Rob Johnson [00:41:04] Give us a break.
Eileen Rochford [00:41:05] Yeah, give us all a break. Totally. If something exists solely due to tradition, then maybe that one's on the table or the chopping block. If there isn't a modern reason for it to be there, yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:41:21] We don't do it because we've always done it. "We've always done it this way." How many times have you heard that? And you're like, "Well, that's not a good enough reason to keep doing it."
Eileen Rochford [00:41:28] To me, that's a reason to not do it anymore.
Rob Johnson [00:41:31] I agree 100%.
Eileen Rochford [00:41:34] My other takeaway biggie is; we got to listen more, ask for feedback more, find opportunities to get- not just survey, you know, formalized feedback, but very informal moments of managers speaking, you know, with their direct reports, you know, team member to team member talking about interactions that didn't go so great and not being afraid to have those conversations, because if you let enough Slack messages go on responded or take, you know, two days to get back to people, and that pattern, you know, just becomes ingrained. There's a whole lot more resentment that's that's going to be fostered. But if you picked up your phone and made an actual phone call, which yes, some would look at you like you have two heads by even suggesting. But the phone still works, guys.
Rob Johnson [00:42:27] Yes, it does. I tried it today. Actually, you and I were talking on the phone today!
Eileen Rochford [00:42:32] You called me!
Rob Johnson [00:42:32] I know and it worked for many minutes.
Eileen Rochford [00:42:34] Yeah, we were nice to each other. Didn't lose our shit the whole time. It's amazing.
Rob Johnson [00:42:39] Yeah. Let's get it out now before the podcast.
Eileen Rochford [00:42:42] Yeah, that's right. So, yeah, also, just that respect. You know, you can replace the word etiquette entirely. Just everything, if done in a respectful manner that, you know, reflects that the person's important to you, the relationship is important to you, then you're going to be okay. Just fall back on being respectful in that way, but you know, show some grace. We've talked about that before on the show, but this is a time to recognize don't hold up, you know, social norms or traditions as a reason to get angry and find out what's going on and kind of, you know, work toward a better way with your coworker or whoever it is we're having the issue with.
Rob Johnson [00:43:28] It's such an easy idea and yet it's so difficult for so many people. But you're right. I mean, it's an easy concept, but if it was so easy, we wouldn't be talking about it, because putting it into practice is more complicated than you might think, but it costs nothing. And it's really. It just sets a different tone.
Eileen Rochford [00:43:48] Mm hmm. I mean, just put up a little poster in your own workspace, your own "please be kind" poster to remind yourself, please be kind.
Rob Johnson [00:43:57] And everybody walking by, it's a great reminder for them, but it's also a reminder for you.
Eileen Rochford [00:44:01] That's right. Yup. It's more so reminder for ourselves because we're all guilty of it. Of course, that's the truth. All right. Well, I think that's going to do it for another episode of Can You Hear Me? Rob. I'm Eileen Rochford.
Eileen Rochford [00:44:13] And I'm Rob Johnson. We thank you all for listening. And we remind you that you can find Can You Hear Me? wherever you get your podcasts; Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts and more. Thanks for listening.