When the pandemic took hold and everyone began working remotely, the thought was that when it was “over,” everyone would return to the office, like before. That hasn’t happened. Between companies employing hybrid, or fully remote options, it seems apparent the return to office(RTO) isn’t happening as expected. Join co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford for this episode of the “Can You Hear Me?” podcast as they ponder the notion that “We are never returning to the office full time.”
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Rob Johnson [00:00:09] Hello again and welcome to another edition of the Can You Hear Me podcast. I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications.
Eileen Rochford [00:00:56] And I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the marketing and strategy firm The Harbinger Group. As you know, if you listen to Can You Hear Me? with any regularity, one of our missions here is to spotlight issues affecting the workplace. And perhaps no issue has defined the workplace more in the last couple of years than return to office or RTO as it is casually known. One particular opinion piece recently by Peggy Noonan in the Wall Street Journal really piqued my interest. So it was titled "The Lonely Office Is Bad for America." In it, Noonan talked about the push and pull between the remote working forces and the RTO crowd. So, Rob, there's so much about that piece and others that I've seen that totally drew me to this topic. It's just the complexity of this is intriguing, the politics, all of it. But in particular, when I think about Peggy's piece, I think- huh well, first of all, she's coming at it from a lens of like being significantly older, right? And lots of people who are writing these pieces are folks who are 50 plus. I'm 51.
Rob Johnson [00:02:14] I'm in that demographic.
Eileen Rochford [00:02:16] Right. But first, let's just go at this from the flexibility maybe and the commute side of things. Now, most people who listen to the podcast know that the company that I founded and continue to run is a wholly remote company. And we've, you know, existed successfully like that. We are a small company. We are not, you know, a large agency by any stretch. So it's different depending on size of organization. But I will say I have the context of about ten years of, you know, a commute and an existence with zero flexibility before I started The Harbinger Group. So I do know what that's like and I also know what other people in my sphere are experiencing. So let's just talk about that. From a flexibility point of view, I think what we all know the pandemic revealed is that there is so much life that could be happening outside of work. But work almost took all the life out of us. It took all the extra hours, you know, just taking care of your pet, taking care of your parent. Being able to participate in community events, social activities, all those things. It's just the ability to do so because of lengthy commutes or, you know, super crazy long work hours with cocktails afterwards and everything else that just takes away flexibility from your life. And working remotely introduces a tremendous amount of flexibility in all kinds of interesting ways and, in my opinion, beneficial ways.
Rob Johnson [00:03:53] So I look at it from a different prism because my old job, my TV job, when I did that for many years, there was no flexibility because you literally had to be there at the same place at the same time, looking the same way every single day. That was the job. And so I remember thinking, gosh, that's the least flexible job ever. And other people who work other normal jobs, whatever their job was prior to the pandemic, had their definition of what flexibility might look like, and then all of a sudden they're introduced to this whole new thing. Well, first of all, we have to work remotely for our health and oh, my gosh, we're productive, we're making money. We're having a couple of my clients have record years in the pandemic.
Eileen Rochford [00:04:43] Yeah, absolutely.
Rob Johnson [00:04:44] I was not anticipating that. And so all of a sudden you're like, "Well, why do I need to be doing things like commuting?" To your point and, you know, fighting that traffic day after day and, you know, especially when I go downtown now, I ride the train because I know I can get work done on the train, which is great, but if I drive and I have to do it for a client later this week, I know I have to get up super early. I've got to get on the road by 7:30 to make 9:00. The day is going to be over at four, right when the commute home is going to happen. That is so unappealing. And it's and even though I do work in my world, partially remote and partially in-person, because you want to get in front of your clients and you want to show them that you're doing the work and that sort of thing. In my new world, it's so nice to be able to be productive, even if you have to work a ten or 12 hour day. If I can do it from home in my shorts and my tennis shoes and a golf shirt like I'm doing today. Oh, my gosh, I've said too much already.
Eileen Rochford [00:05:54] Uh huh.
Rob Johnson [00:05:55] That is that is ideal. So flexibility. And again, you also mentioned a minute ago how people Peggy Noonan, you or I might look at it through a different prism because of our age and other people who are younger workers are like, no. And the thing about it is a lot of things are trending or have been trending in their direction when it comes to the influence they can have on their employers. So we're going to get to that in just a second.
Eileen Rochford [00:06:21] We are getting to that.
Rob Johnson [00:06:23] But I really do feel like flexibility. And the commute. The commute is so big.
Eileen Rochford [00:06:31] Well, let's just look at this from a different, well not a different perspective, but continuing with the third for a sec, just the title alone that "The Lonely Office is Bad for America." Okay, the commute and the flexibility do two things. The elimination of commute. The impact that that had on the environment for the globe in the period that that was the case just for white collar workers who were going into office spaces, who weren't doing that- undeniable and the impacts from emissions on individual cars going into offices in mass in urban regions throughout the world. It's terrible for the environment. It just is. And people aren't going to give up their cars, whether it's San Francisco, L.A., Chicago, you name it. You know, the percentage of people using mass transit right now because of the risks that they learned about during the pandemic, they're even lower than they were before. Yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:07:29] They're trying to offer incentives. The mass transit organizations, CTA, Metra, you know.
Eileen Rochford [00:07:34] But they've reduced their ability to deliver service. They've cut service by almost 50% in most urban areas. How are people supposed to reliably get to work when that's happened though? That's a whole other issue, right?
Rob Johnson [00:07:49] And on the talk about the environment and that sort of thing, just not having to commute. And, you know, think about it as a pocketbook issue, which we're going to talk about a little bit later for people that are going downtown is, you know, gas is $4 or $5 a gallon. It was $5 a gallon.
Eileen Rochford [00:08:09] Ridiculous, it was upwards of six here for a while. Yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:08:11] And anytime you don't have to, you know, fill your tank up and have, you know, sticker shock. That's a good thing, too. I realize we're kind of going off the path there a little bit, but that's also related to this whole commuting issue.
Eileen Rochford [00:08:24] It totally is 100%. So I mean, just point one, you know. Ms. Noonan, no, in fact, the lonely office in a lot of ways is good for America and it's good for the globe. The flexibility that's brought to people's lives is also good for America because of the improvements in health, all aspects of health, particularly mental health as well. So I think having flexibility and the option, whether it's hybrid or wholly remote, is actually good for America. So that's my position.
Rob Johnson [00:09:03] Yes, said the CEO of the Harbinger Group.
Eileen Rochford [00:09:03] But let's move on, there's more to talk about.
Rob Johnson [00:09:04] I fully know. I get it. And for you, it's worked for years and it's probably a little funny for you, having been a real trendsetter in this world where this is just what you did for years and years, and now the world's heading your way. They're coming from The Harbinger Group, they were pioneers in this field, and now the rest of the world is realizing, yeah, pretty good thing, right?
Eileen Rochford [00:09:27] Yeah. It's different for companies of every size. And we're going to dig into a lot of those differences and dimensions as we continue our conversation here. So that I wouldn't want to discount that.
Rob Johnson [00:09:39] No, no, of course we shouldn't. The other discussion point here in that opinion piece by Peggy Noonan centers around the changing dynamic in the workplace. We've talked about it before. We know it exists. It's no surprise. But she wrote about employees, quote, "In this tight job market, they may have the upper hand. Employers are fighting for talent. Fire me. I'll get a better job tomorrow and you'll get 50 hours with HR onboarding my replacement." The subtext here is that attraction and retention of talent is real. As we know, employees, or perspective employees, know this and they're using it to their advantage. So all of a sudden you're getting some pushback. Some of these companies are saying, "hey, we need you to return to office because that's the way we did business prior to the pandemic. It's time to come back." Even if they're not going to be back five days a week, even if it's in a hybrid situation, and people are now realizing, wait a minute, for maybe one of the first times in history that a lot of us can think of, the employers are holding some of the cards and they're like, "no, I don't want to." And then, I mean, think about that. You as a boss, Eileen, and hiring people right now. I mean, so you can totally relate to this. And if somebody is like, you know, if you're changing the parameters of what they need to be doing work wise, which you are not in this regard because you guys are wholly, you know, a remote operation. And somebody says, "hey, I'll get a better job tomorrow, and you're going to spend all this time trying to replace me and train me." That's daunting.
Eileen Rochford [00:11:09] Mm hmm. I just want to add one thing. There was a sentence also right after the quote that you read. Peggy wrote, "The balance of power will change if the slowing economy leads to layoffs and hiring freezes." What she's implying there, of course, is that, okay, so once things get tighter and employees no longer have this upper hand and this leverage, you know, employers are going to be able to bring down their hammer and make it the way they want it to be. I also take issue with that position. Significant issue, honestly, just the very idea that this is about power is the wrong way to be looking at this. This isn't about power. This is about productivity. It's about efficiency. It's about companies operating at their best and cultures operating at their best. And it is you know, it's a mix of being in person, I think, as well as continuing to leverage, take advantage of optimize all the things that technology brings to us that we've learned undeniably can improve how we work, not just where we work, but how we work, right. I think that's what these conversations should be about, not about retaining power and who's going to win. You know, that's another aspect of this whole position that kind of just rubbed me the wrong way. I think that's what we're looking at really. Now is just the time of opportunity versus power struggle. That's my opinion.
Rob Johnson [00:12:38] Then her inference, Peggy's, did seem a little old school. And I'm glad you brought up that sentence, because that sentence did follow the one that I quoted directly. The point was okay, right now, workers hold some of the power. But if the recession happens, if the job market gets tighter. And you can't just say, hey, I'm going to go find a better job tomorrow and you're going to spend 50 hours with H.R.. So she's inferring that, yeah, things are going to change and it is based on power. But I think that's missing the point, just like you said, because it's really about shifting priorities.
Eileen Rochford [00:13:22] Exactly.
Rob Johnson [00:13:23] It's about changing the world, like, you know, think about all the times in history that business has had to change and think about, you know, in the early days there was one way to do something. And then all of a sudden, business changed. I mean, I'm going to give a, you know, a dramatic example because I know there's people that are listening to this that don't realize that we didn't have computers at some point in our lives.
Eileen Rochford [00:13:49] What?! I've always had a computer. Cut it out!
Rob Johnson [00:13:53] You know, right now it's going at 14 four. It's going to take, you know, 6 hours do anything! But the thing is, you know, there is a way to do business. There is a way to do business. It would be like, here's an invoice and here's a, you know, just and I'm giving a real basic example. But yeah, but business evolves. And this is a major evolution because people realize they can be productive, they can be engaged.
Eileen Rochford [00:14:23] Peggy didn't really get to anywhere in her whole opinion piece. You know, everyone's calling this the great attrition, right. I call it the great awakening. I don't think it's the great attrition. I truly think that it's an awakening and that employees have just- they've gone through the fire, you know, and they've learned this, as you put it, is about priorities. So the things that they want out of life, not just a job but out of life, are far more important to them in so many ways than the title. The super giant salary. The, "go, go, go achievements." And the you know, "I'm so busy" mentality that's been shoved down our throats and we've all been, you know, spinning back for like a couple of decades now. So I think people are just tired of it. And I don't believe that even if, as she put it, oh, things will shift when there's a recession and the layoffs hit. I don't know about that. I think people are going to continue to choose the right fit for them. And that's much more like multidimensional, y'know holistic, when they're considering the impact on their lives and the life they want in conjunction with professional work that they want. That's again, I mean, people call me idealistic all the time and unnecessarily positive, but I really think that that's what's happening. That's largely at the heart of this. It's that great awakening idea.
Rob Johnson [00:16:03] I love the Great Awakening because everybody's got a name for something. This is all very dramatic and you've come up with another great, I guess, a name that really explains how people might be thinking.
Eileen Rochford [00:16:15] As long as you don't say "quiet quitting" on this podcast then we're good. Okay, we're going to stop right there.
Rob Johnson [00:16:20] Am I allowed to say pivot again? Because you barred me from saying that about six months ago.
Eileen Rochford [00:16:26] I did, yeah. Yeah, you now owe me $50.
Rob Johnson [00:16:27] I really try not to. Like in my regular world, I might bring it up occasionally, but I feel embarrassed to do it. But here I would not even. Only if I'm making fun of myself, like right now, I would never think to say it.
Eileen Rochford [00:16:39] Okay. Thank you. You are listening, Rob.
Rob Johnson [00:16:42] Rob's paying attention to me, what?
Eileen Rochford [00:16:44] That never happens. All right. So let's talk about the next idea here. So a recent Fortune magazine article indicated that workers are rebelling against the notion of return to office, and that's undeniable. It's funny that the headlines that you continue to see, "even as September looms the big return to office date that's been bandied about for so long." In fact, some bigger companies like Citi, Manpower and McKinsey, they're embracing full on. We're going to continue with remote and hybrid work. It's cool. We're going to make it permanent. We'll codify it and we're good with that. But then Apple, who was mandating a return to office like full on, they've recently adapted that, but they're still insisting three days a week you're in that office and that's been met an Apple with some massive resistance. Loving seeing the uprising of the petitions that are being circulated. Thousands and thousands of signatures are accumulating on these petitions to tell Apple we are not going to do it. So it's interesting to see the backlash that is taking place, even in a place where they're saying it's only three days a week.
Rob Johnson [00:18:10] You start talking about Apple and you're talking about one of the biggest companies around and they're like, "yes, we are doing Return to Office and the hybrid situation," as you mentioned. And everybody's like, "oh, no, we're not." Which speaks to the power that some employees must feel. And I'm thinking five years ago, if somebody had a directive like that, a boss, a C-suite, and everybody says, "no, I don't think so. And not only are we not going to do it, we're going to circulate a petition to make you think otherwise." I just think that's interesting. And so you were citing Citi and Manpower and McKinsey, and they're really taking a closer look at it, you know, as a permanent solution. And that's intriguing, right?
Eileen Rochford [00:18:54] Yeah, especially with brands like that.
Rob Johnson [00:18:57] Yeah. I mean, and you think about them and they're fairly nimble as well even though there's some bigger companies, right. Yeah, and they're also especially like a McKinsey has their finger on the pulse of what's going on. So, so I think it's interesting that you have these companies that are like, you know what, this is going to be a permanent thing. And then at the same time, you have Apple that everybody knows and everybody has six or seven devices in on at least, and their workers are like, "nuh-uh," I mean, so I'm just fascinated by that because 5 years ago, nobody would have dared a petition against what your boss said.
Eileen Rochford [00:19:33] What's driving those decisions? Yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:19:41] You know?
Eileen Rochford [00:19:42] That's another indication, you know, a concrete example of the shift and I don't like the word power. I don't think that's what it's about. But it is, there's a shift taking place, both in the mindset of those who work and in kind of the political, you know, distribution of clout. It's interesting. There's a whole change that's occurring that I don't think we all understand the significance of it, because it's hard to when you're in the moment. But I think it is going to have some very long term, you know, forever implications. When it comes to what work looks like and where it happens.
Rob Johnson [00:20:25] I think you're right. And as it relates to some big cities that are that are trying to implement this. New York and Seattle came across our radar as we were researching this. And I think it's very interesting that a place like New York say that the chamber there is trying to get people to come in three days a week, and people aren't so keen about that. And truly, if you're thinking about like in New York, which real estate's very expensive to live there, all those sorts of things. And all of a sudden you give people a chance to work remotely for a while and they're like, all of a sudden, I don't have to live in downtown Manhattan, you know? I mean, all of a sudden that's pretty appealing. But then you work for the chamber and they're like "we need you back in" and you're like, "Oh gosh, I don't know." But both of these cities have an issue related to the amount of commercial real estate that is currently available and so New York's having this issue as well. Seattle has a tremendous amount of commercial real estate, and they're also kind of saying, hey, listen, some of these tech companies are still debating their return to office plans. And so they haven't made any decisions yet. And as they haven't been able to fill that office space, it's a big issue for some of our bigger cities like New York and Seattle.
Eileen Rochford [00:21:50] Oh, yeah. I mean, it's they're inching up on 20% unoccupied commercial real estate in those regions and other urban areas as well. It's bad, I know that you know, smaller market but Cleveland is another great example of rates they've just never seen of empty commercial space. And, you know, I get it. You know, Peggy Noonan in her article, she talked about how there's a massive impact on the micro-businesses that surround large businesses that are, you know, professional worker based. So the economies that kind of depend on people like us taking the train or driving in, think of all the things you do along the way from needing to drop off clothes at the dry cleaner to the person you pay to park your car to the place where you get lunch, right? Those micro-economies are shriveling up and dying because people aren't doing this to the degree that they were. And the commercial spaces aren't occupied to the degree that they were. It's interesting to think about that.
Rob Johnson [00:23:11] I'm glad you brought up the commute again because, you know, we talked about it a couple of minutes ago. It used to be the commute and efficiency and this and that. And now it's saying that people are pushing back on the commute. And part of that is the really high gas prices we were referencing a few minutes ago. So that wasn't always part of the discussion. And given the fact where we are with inflation, given the fact and we'll get to that in a little bit as it relates to other costs associated with coming to in-person, you know, return to office work, it's interesting that that's a thing now and it should be a thing because it's a huge expenditure for many people.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:55] It is no doubt about it, let alone the negative impact on.
Rob Johnson [00:24:00] Yes.
Eileen Rochford [00:24:00] Yes. Go ahead. Say it with me now. The climate.
Rob Johnson [00:24:06] The climate.
Eileen Rochford [00:24:06] Our world. All of that. Of course, if they all had electric cars, that would be a different story. But we're far, far away from that, aren't we?
Rob Johnson [00:24:16] But as we know and the work that we do with some of our clients, everybody's like, "Hey, let's have electric cars in Illinois. Let's have a million of them by 2030." And there's an infrastructure issue that needs to be discussed as well. It's not that they won't meet it. It's going to be a challenge, though. So when people say, "oh, electric cars, that's the easy solution." Again, I don't want to go too far off the path here.
Eileen Rochford [00:24:39] No, you're not.
Rob Johnson [00:24:40] That I am, but I know that it's something that you and I spend a lot of time on. And electric vehicles are the wave of the future. Yeah, but that wave is not hitting next week or next quarter.
Eileen Rochford [00:24:50] Then I'm going to get you to buy one. You're doing it. That's all I'm going to say, yeah, you're doing it.
Rob Johnson [00:24:54] So, you know. But then as it relates to New York and Seattle, there are different reasons. Some of the reasons are similar and some are fairly unique. But in terms of commercial real estate, that's, I mean, does it matter how big the city is? That's always going to be an issue. So, we also want to discuss the office realities that do exist, especially if you're coming back several days a week because hybrid schedules may call for showing up, say, 2 to 3 days a week, as many do. Workers aren't going back maybe a day or maybe two days. And since there's no set time to report to the office sometimes or people just say, "hey, I used to have to be in by nine. Now it's a little more loosey goosey. I'm going to show up whenever." Employees, and I think this is an interesting point because it's a new point, are showing up at different times, which means the in-person time, one of the reasons for doing it is going to be minimal anyway, which led one worker to say that all he is gained by the RTO is, quote, "a commute." So I think this is interesting because you sit there and you think about return to office, we need to be in front of each other. We need to be collaborating. We be doing this and that. But if you're a three time a week company and you've got people coming in a day or two or when they come in, they may be in at 11 or whatever. That in-person time that they may be citing as a reason to get into the office may be completely useless.
Eileen Rochford [00:26:24] Yeah, absolutely. I've heard this from so many clients, so many friends, peers, family members that they'll walk in on their two days a week and they don't have set days, but they go, you know, they show up at least what's mandated 2 to 3 and nine times out of ten they're the only person there or they're one of the handful. So what's the benefit of that, right? I'm sure everyone asks themselves that question; "when I'm there and my team isn't. What am I getting out of this that's any different than I would have had I been, you know, working out of my office at home like I have been for quite a long time now?" And it's a legitimate question. In addition to, you know, the communal aspects, there's just this kind of psychic dream of having to put your happy face on and go into that, you know, live interaction environment. And it's not always positive even when there are other people there and say, you know, you've got to at least enough of a concentration of people that you're having interaction, you're having meetings. There's a lot of drain associated with that, too. There's a lot of positives, but there's also a lot of drain.
Rob Johnson [00:27:40] And so talking about things like office politics, you know, the whole politic thing, and you're back in person and people are trying to get won over on this or that or, you know, kissing up to the boss or whatever the case is. All these sorts of things weren't as prevalent when you weren't in the same office space.
Eileen Rochford [00:27:57] A lot of research actually revealed that remote working is a great equalizer, particularly for those, let's call it disenfranchized groups being able to be on screen or not. Everyone has to kind of play by the same rules is a great leveling of the playing field, it's a great equalizer and many, many benefited from that. So what I want people to think about is, if you're going back to the office, whatever structure that's taking hybrid full time, whatever it may be, this experience of being remote revealed a lot of inadequacies, a lot of vulnerabilities, a lot of 'unnecessary-s', as I like to say. Yeah, and you can't just, like, sweep that under the rug. So how can we retain the positives of, you know, the great equalizing aspects of everyone working remotely? If you choose to go back into the office again for whatever amount of time, ask yourself that question What can I do so that I can level the playing field for everyone in my company so that they can contribute as equally as successfully as they did when we were remote. You know, now that we are going to return in some fashion or another, those are the kinds of things that I'd love people to be thinking about and working toward solutions on instead of "I just want it the way it was and we're just going to dig in and everybody is back and just, you know, forget and gaslight them all into, you know, forgetting about everything that happened in the last two years" because we just can't do that. We can't go back.
Rob Johnson [00:29:48] You know how they say there's no such thing as a free lunch?
Eileen Rochford [00:29:51] Yes.
Rob Johnson [00:29:51] One of my clients, you know, they have a three day hybrid return to office plan that most people adhere to. But one of the things is like on a Tuesday or Wednesday, it's like, hey, we're getting catered lunch from, you know, could be a Portillo's or a, you know, an Italian place near whatever the case is. It's like, here's free lunch, come on in. Like, aside from setting the rules, because they're the employer and we need you in three days a week. But it's, you know, maybe a little more flexible, I guess. How do I get you in here?
Eileen Rochford [00:30:25] But are people that? Are they coming in just for the lunch?
Rob Johnson [00:30:28] Well, no, they're coming. And I don't have a pulse on, you know, finger on the pulse of everybody. But I can tell you that those days, those are very well-attended days at the office.
Eileen Rochford [00:30:41] Good. Good to hear. I've heard the opposite in other places that they've tried everything. They've tried free lunch with the CEO and people don't even come. It's crazy.
Rob Johnson [00:30:49] It's one example and it feels like, oh gosh, there's a lot of people in there. This is also a company that has a great culture and people like working there and they like each other. I mean, so they're already a little bit of a unicorn anyway because there's not a lot of backbiting that goes on and they're very productive and they've got a really good culture. So that would seem to play into that. Like, "Hey, I want to get back to the office and see people just in general, and if I need a little extra incentive- I'll give myself a free lunch."
Eileen Rochford [00:31:16] Mm. That's a great point. Thinking along the lines of where are the wrinkles that I can smooth out that folks now know that they don't have to experience if they choose a different job that allows them to remain remote. So if you want to go back into the office, where can you smooth out those wrinkles? Lunch may not be a wrinkle for everybody, but the cost of, you know, more expensive food because you're downtown or having to order or the time that it takes to put together and bring your own lunch, all those kinds of things. That's a great wrinkle that can be smoothed out if you choose to as an employer. Other things like the cost to commute, like maybe you are incentivizing or offsetting the costs for their Metra pass or their CTA pass, bench pass. Well, maybe now you should. You know, those are lots of ideas that might work to help bring them back. If you really feel you need to do it.
Rob Johnson [00:32:21] So tCNN business actually coined it. Lunchflation. It's "Lunchflation."
Eileen Rochford [00:32:28] Oh yes. That's a good one.
Rob Johnson [00:32:30] Because inflation is real. And the food that you would get at a restaurant has gone up 7.2% in the last year. Food prices in general up 9.4% in April from the same time last year, and I mean so, we all know it's real because we all are sitting there going, man, you know, money isn't going as far as it used to and here's why. So in Maryland, one person was talking about the lunchflation idea that before you get lunch for $7 to $12, now you're spending at least $15. And I can just tell you anecdotally, some of the places that I have gone to eat regularly downtown that would cost a certain amount are far greater than they used to be. And you're like, "Oh, my gosh, what is this? I used to pay this amount of money." So my own experience has been. Lunchflation is real.
Eileen Rochford [00:33:22] Yeah. And that just wipes out all the raises that we all doled out earlier this year because of not only because of inflation, but because of retention. So they were nice raises, right, but now everyone's paying everything from the gas that's sucked out huge portions of their paycheck or just regular, everyday life. And the cost of lunch, the cost of if you have to do dry cleaning, all the things that surround, you know, heading into the office, it's like, well, I just gave away that. Thought I got a raise, but not really. Because I still have to pay for those things.
Rob Johnson [00:34:01] And think about as a commuter, that has to go in. And your car, say, used to cost $40 to fill up. Now it's $75. Or if you're somebody that has a vehicle that requires premium gas, you're spending regularly over $100 every time you fill up. That's- I mean, that's big. That's big time, you know?
Eileen Rochford [00:34:22] Yes, for sure. Lots to consider. Lots of things that I think encourage us to think about different ways of doing things, not where we work, but how we work. Anyway, okay. So then there's the significant reality of commercial real estate and ensuring that the space is being utilized for the realities of current situations. Because workforce is changing; when people are there, what they're doing while they're there. All of that's changing. So in a recent article in Work Design magazine titled "How Will We View Today's Transformation of the Workplace in 20 years?" Many intriguing issues are brought up. So, for instance, the notion that the space, this workspace, is becoming what the employees want it to be. Instead of altering the workplace to be redesigned to capture the voice of the leaders, it should be done to capture the voices, and I would suggest the needs, of the employees.
Rob Johnson [00:35:29] Go figure. So the bosses who are spending all this time and effort coming up with "what does this new office look like from a physical plant standpoint? And are we having everything that we like?" Are now being told it really should be geared toward the people that are working for you?
Eileen Rochford [00:35:46] Yeah. And that's a significant transformation. And that's one of those things that, you know, if you're willing to kind of go that route and really put genuine effort into it, that could incentivize people if again, it's an environment where you feel it's critically necessary for folks to be there with frequency. If you create an environment that suits their needs even more so, and I would say their new needs because things are very different now. So continuing to kind of push that envelope to design not just the physical spaces but produce the and have on hand the things and services that employees need that maybe they were able to squeeze in when they had that more flexible "working from home" lifestyle. If you can provide those services once you have them come back to the physical office, that's another wrinkle that you could help smooth out and make it more appealing and perhaps less of a bitter pill to swallow, because you know that bitter pill element is what I keep hearing about, even from the companies that are putting a lot of effort into making it more palatable.
Rob Johnson [00:37:02] Well, the other point, as we're talking about this whole "Office of the Future" thing is in an article in TechCrunch talked about people are getting venture funding for people detecting sensors in offices. So you would think, oh gosh, that's for you to make sure they're in the office, which I'm sure somebody has already thought of. It's primarily for what's the future of this office going to look like? Do we even need this office space? Is it being utilized to its maximum? And these are all issues that support the point that you were just making about, you know, how is this going to look in 20 years? Are these needs of the office being addressed as it relates to the employees? So I think that's really a fascinating sort of side point there about having these people detecting sensors not to be like, "hey, Eileen was in the office for 4 hours," but to say is it even worth it? Is it even worth it to have this space and to take on this huge expense?
Eileen Rochford [00:37:59] It anonymous, yeah. Yeah, I'm so curious. I mean, the venture backing of those different offerings were not insignificant. So which leads me to conclude. Okay. So this has been studied and looked at for a big reason. And there's money in this because the transformation of these spaces maybe end up being for better use for employees. It may end up concluding, we don't need it. They may end up opening up opportunities for wholly different uses of all of this commercial space, and that's empty all over the United States. And when I look at those buildings, unlike a lot of the articles, you know, we started with Peggy Noonan's, but there were there are many others. Those articles talked about how they look at these giant buildings with sadness because they lay empty. And I look at them and I think about. "How could they be used differently?" I don't know. There's a million different ways, and I just predict that things are going to end up being a lot different. Like maybe we have a housing crisis. We all know that there isn't enough inventory, let alone the skyrocketing prices. Maybe some of this is going to be converted and people will be able to have access to different types of housing options that don't exist right now. That's just one thing that could come out of this. There's a million things that could happen.
Rob Johnson [00:39:40] You have to figure if you're in commercial real estate and you have all this space that's now not being used in the formerly traditional ways of, you know, say, office space, what are you going to do? I mean, you may take your lumps in tax write offs for, you know, several years, but you're in there to make money and to do business. And so at some point, you're going to be forced to figure out how do I reimagine this space? Because if it's not going to be for a bunch of employees who show up to the same place every day at the same time and utilize this workspace, what will it be? And so, you know, I mean, we can sit here and speculate, but I think that's going to be incumbent upon that specific part of the commercial real estate industry to figure out how do we, you know- this isn't going away, this isn't going to change. If I'm waiting for people to come in and take up that spot and have employees come back to work and do all this kind of stuff, that may never happen. So if you're waiting for that, you're gonna have a high mountain to climb because it is changing. And to your point, you know, 20 years from now, we're going to look back and say, oh, gosh, that was so passé.
Eileen Rochford [00:40:53] Yeah totally, yeah. The use of the word reimagining by you right now as we're concluding this episode couldn't have been better timed. In my opinion, that's exactly what this is all about. We should not be looking at this situation through the lens of what was. We should be looking at this through the lens of what could be in all areas. Right? And I think that's what kind of has rubbed me the wrong way. Whenever another one of these articles pops up about how bad it is for us that office spaces lain empty, because I just disagree. I think we shouldn't be trying to go backwards. We should be trying to go forwards with improvement and even more success and enhancing how work happens, not where work happens. That's where the massive opportunity lies for us as a country and honestly, across the globe. There's so many things that come out of this that would make it better for the environment, for our health, for business. That's what I'd like to see us do.
Rob Johnson [00:42:15] I can't imagine ending the show with anything more powerful than that. That is planting the flag. We talk about it all the time, right, Eileen? Plant that flag. And you just did that. And those are all very relevant points. And I think this is an issue. We've talked about it in different ways in the past on this podcast. And my sense is that as things continue to evolve, we will continue to explore different facets of this discussion. So with that said, that's going to do it for another episode of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson.
Eileen Rochford [00:42:48] And I'm Eileen Rochford, and we thank you for listening and remind you that you can find can you hear me wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts and more.