Remember when everyone thought we were coming out of the pandemic in early summer, people started going about their lives in ways that were normal before the pandemic, and companies planned for mid to late summer returns to office? Well that seems so three months ago, with the Delta variant raging in the United States. Today on the podcast “Can You Hear Me”, we will discuss how leaders must lead during this new new normal. When is it safe to return to office? Will you have to adjust your company’s workflow forever? How do you manage a workforce that maybe one part thrilled with the flexibility of remote work, and one part terrified that their “normal” work experience is nowhere to be found?
Can you hear me now Episode 7
Rob Johnson [00:00:11] This is Episode 7, How to lead through greater pandemic uncertainty. Remember when everyone thought we were coming out of the pandemic and early summer people started going about their lives in ways that were normal before the pandemic and companies plan for mid to late summer returns to office? Well, that seems so three months ago with the Delta variant raging in the United States today on the podcast. Can you hear me? We will discuss how leaders must lead during this new, new normal. When is it safe to return to the office? Will you have to adjust your company's workflow forever? How do you manage a workforce that may be one part thrilled with the flexibility of remote work and one part terrified that their normal work experience is nowhere to be found?
Eileen Rochford [00:00:55] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Can You Hear Me? Where we delve into some of the most important and pressing corporate communications issues of the day. I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the marketing strategy and public relations firm The Harbinger Group.
Rob Johnson [00:01:09] And I'm Rob Johnson, former TV news anchor. And for the last several years now, president of Rob Johnson Communications, my communications consulting firm. You know the number of stops and starts for return to office, Eileen in the past nine months really has been mind numbing. Actually, the planning for many companies began about a year ago.
Eileen Rochford [00:01:28] I know it feels like it's been going on forever. How many times have we heard we'rere returning to the office after the new year of 2021, then it was spring, then Memorial Day, then after the Fourth of July. post Labor Day right now. They realize that If they don't get people back to the office by mid on autumn, I mean, why bother, just push it into 2022!
Rob Johnson [00:01:50] It makes perfect sense. You know, there are a few things to unpack here. The first is the unknown. The Delta variant is spiking again, and the best-laid plans might be outdated by the time you're formalizing such a strategy. The second is analyzing the new normal. Now that workers have determined that they could be effective and have success remotely, how willing will they be to come back to a largely in person scenario if that's the case? And the third is, can you mandate vaccines short of religious or health reasons or frequent covid tests for the non vaccinated as prerequisites to returning to the office? And this is one thing that the debate just keeps going on about it. People say, I don't want to get a vaccine and people say, well, OK, that's your right not to get a vaccine. But a lot of private companies can also say, then you can't come to work.
Eileen Rochford [00:02:43] Absolutely. you don't even know there is no level playing field right now, right? And that's, I think is what's most complex for business leaders in particular. It varies just so much. It's it feels like a minefield, you know.
Rob Johnson [00:03:04] And the thing is, there's not really a playbook. I mean, some companies are saying you have to be vaccinated. I was reading, you know, if you're going to go watch a game at the United Center, you have to show your vax card. Some of these companies are saying if you come back to the office, you must be vaccinated and people will say, I don't want to be vaccinated. And so there's the rub then. Are you going to work remotely? Is it fair for people that aren't vaccinated to not to have to come to the office? Because I think a lot of people, even though the social issues aside, which are being in front of people and being in the office and gleaning energy from it is important. I know a lot of people feel like, hey, I love having a little flexibility and we're going to get into this a little bit later, too. I don't know that I want to go back to what was normal.
Eileen Rochford [00:03:50] Right! And where should leaders take their cues from right now is an interesting question to ponder. Like in our state, in Illinois, it's very clear the governor of Illinois has said to work as a state worker, to work for the state, and in any number of capacities that barring, as you've said, some significant exemptions. Those folks have to be mandated. And that kind of sets the tone for the state to some degree for employers. Would you agree that that's a place that maybe business leaders can look to for direction or what do you think Rob?
Rob Johnson [00:04:31] They can look to it. But the other thing about it, too Eileen is that they're public workers. You know, they're on the public payroll. So that's a little bit different. And people say, well, you can't mandate this or that. And they're like, yes, we can. Or the city of Chicago. Lori Lightfoot doing essentially the same thing is mandating that workers be vaccinated. But these private companies I'm really interested in and since you run a private company and I know you all don't you all work remotely in general anyway. So you're not a perfect example of it. But as somebody that deals with these sorts of issues on a daily basis, what's the right call? Are you going to get pushback? Are you going to be criticized? Is it going to harm your workforce? Because if you're somebody that says you must get vaccinated, which is not an unreasonable position to take, I don't think, what are the pitfalls there? Because we're communication strategists. We're looking around the corner all the time. Right. Right. And so what's around the corner on that one? I can sort of see it.
Eileen Rochford [00:05:34] it's not just about communications, right. There's a massive amount of potential liability wrapped up in all of this. Risk is inherent in every business leaders mind right now, not only risk, but what's best for the people they employ, for their health, and for the people who they may interact with.
Rob Johnson [00:05:58] That's it. That's one hundred percent. Right! I mean, because is it fair to the rest of your workforce, the people that have followed the mandates and have chosen to get vaccinated because they thought they were going to be safer, that are towing their own personal line and the company line and then others say, you know, I don't want to do it. And I do respect everybody's right to have their own opinion about this. But I also think that companies have the right to say, I mean, when you work for a company, you're always taking orders. You're always doing what you're told to do, essentially. So this would be perfectly in line with that. Hey, this is how it is if you're going to work here, here's what you got to do. It would be just another requirement.
Eileen Rochford [00:06:43] It's a matter of personal choice To a certain degree. You can choose where you want to. So if your beliefs, your values or decisions aren't aligned with your current employer, then you have the option to go find an employer that is in alignment with your personal view on vaccination. That's just how I see it. And I think that that's the way that lots and lots of employers see it too.
Rob Johnson [00:07:11] As they should, because this is it's not an easy answer. I mean, if everybody was doing what everybody wanted them to do, we'd be so much better off. But, you know, that's the way the world works, is people have different beliefs and people have different things that are priorities to them. And this happens to be a huge one.
Eileen Rochford [00:07:33] Particularly in a democracy.
Rob Johnson [00:07:35] Yes, it is.
Eileen Rochford [00:07:36] It's a which is a beautiful thing. Let's not forget that. The ups and downs, the checks and balances, all of it. It's imperfect, but to maintain it, we have to respect every position.
Rob Johnson [00:07:50] Perfection is the imperfection right. There's warts and all, and that's the way the founding fathers probably wanted it a little bit. It's not perfect. So.
Eileen Rochford [00:08:01] So in our situation, since you brought it up, the folks who work at the Harbinger Group and again, we're a very small company, which we like, but honestly, I think in a very small situation, sometimes it makes things much, much easier and sometimes it makes things much, much harder. What I have found interesting about our situation is the alignment of all of us who work at the Harbinger Group on the issue of vaccination. Everyone believes that it's the right thing to do and everyone's been vaccinated without any influence from me. It was very organic and spontaneous. Everyone's sharing their feelings about it. When vaccination became an option, everyone here almost rushed to get it, in the order that it was opened up to us, you know, folks were rushing to be able to get it. So it was almost an exciting experience, moments of celebration. Each time another one of us was able to be vaccinated, we had like a mini party, you know, because to us, that represented the ability to interact with our clients in person again and to see each other in person again.
Rob Johnson [00:09:18] That's huge. That's huge. I mean, I think that's why a lot of people listen. I think there are a lot of people out there. I can certainly speak for my family. And it wasn't like, let me rush and get this vaccine. I mean, I was sitting there, you know, you do research on it. And I had misgivings. My wife had misgivings. My son had misgivings about doing it. But we said, you know what, if this will allow us to do more closely the things that we want to do, if it will allow us the freedoms that we seemingly once had to return, then we'll do it. But it wasn't like we were first in line. Like, let's do. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Just you know, we really had some concerns about it, but it seemed like the right thing to do. That's one family. Every family's different. I know that.
Eileen Rochford [00:10:00] Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's very different. And, Mike and I, my husband, were frequently reminding ourselves how we kind of live in a bit of a bubble here in Chicago. You know, for the most part, it's leans more liberal, politically and ideologically. So no question, for the most part, we live in a bubble where we're hearing things like wear your mask and make sure the folks who are interacting with have, you know, their vaccination status and things like that are talked about a little more freely here. So we do, we live in a bit of a bubble, but elsewhere, people, companies and families and individuals are continuing to grapple with all of that, sometimes very differently.
Rob Johnson [00:10:46] And that's what we're focused on here today is the return to office, the various plays that are looming ahead of you. If you're a leader of a company, what do you do as you try to get people to return to office in some form or fashion or as you pick the kind of return that you want?
Eileen Rochford [00:11:08] And whether that will be in-person hybrid, all one, all of the other, all of that is kind of up in the air for so many of us, or it's just evolving a little more slowly than we expected. But according to a recent poll of company leaders, by PWC, here's where they stood on their plan to reengage their workers. Thirty three percent of companies said it would be a mix of in-person hybrid and fully remote. So that's kind of interesting. Another 19 percent indicated their workforce would be all in person. We've heard several of those also heard several who have said very publicly, we're all back by this day.
Rob Johnson [00:11:47] Yes, they have.
Eileen Rochford [00:11:48] And then had to eat their words.
Rob Johnson [00:11:50] Yes, they had to dial it back.
Eileen Rochford [00:11:51] yeah, if you will. Eighteen percent of them said they would employ a mix of in-person hybrid. There would be no fully remote option. Another 18 percent said it would be all hybrid and four said fully remote. And the other eight said they would allow their teams to self organize or they were just delaying implementing their plan altogether because they didn't know what the heck was going on. I mean, that's a quite a mixed bag.
Rob Johnson [00:12:14] It really is. And there's no majority rules on this. There's no like one of those decisions is like what's happening universally. So it really speaks to the diversity of thought and these different companies. The last one you cited, the eight percent about allowing their teams to self organize or delaying implementing their plan. I don't think is a very good idea, although, you know, you should have a plan in place and then you should realize you may have to alter that plan. But to sit here and say, oh, we don't have a plan yet, I think is kicking the can down the road. And I think at some point your company is going to want leadership and they're going to want to see what's the game plan going to be, what are we going to do to get back to where we fully function?
Eileen Rochford [00:12:57] No doubt that's the number one piece of counsel we can give today. If you don't have a plan, GET ONE, even if you're only putting it on a shelf and doing nothing with it for now, that's OK. But get one for goodness sake.
Rob Johnson [00:13:08] Yeah. And you can see there are lots of different options. You don't have to get behind just one. You can have flexibility. You can you know, I liked it. Thirty-three percent of the company you're talking about in-person, hybrid, and fully remote. I'm not sure exactly how you pull that off. Some people are going to be all in person. Some of you are coming in two days a week and some of you are going to be fully remote. So that seems like that's a big plan to undertake. I think if you're if you're running a company or if you're, you know, in charge of operations at a company.
Eileen Rochford [00:13:41] We have one client that is actually following a model that is similar to what you just described Rob. And it is complex. There's all kinds of variables, you know, so they've got about fifteen hundred corporate office employees who perform many different functions. And they need to have certain roles in the building at all times, you know, for very obvious reasons. Others are optional. Others have volunteered to be part of, you know, the initial cohort of return. Yeah, there's a ton of scheduling involved in that and it is complex. But I think what it comes down to is if It is important to the leadership of that company to return and whatever those reasons may be, you know, it may be they may be pragmatic reasons. They may be more ideological. But if they are motivated to make it happen, then they'll do so is what I'm seeing in the marketplace. You Know they're kind of just making those decisions as a leadership team based upon their priorities and their values. And many are not returning at all, but those that are architecting a really smart plan that keeps people safe, that has kind of tracking built into it to a degree, meaning we know who's on campus or in the corporate headquarters at any given time because they've implemented technologies that enable them to have all of that information at their fingertips at any moment. So, you know, if they're motivated, that's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing that they're really putting smart and organized plans in place. And along with that, the communications that allow their employees to prepare, both logistically meaning, oh, OK, well, starting in eight weeks, I'm going to have to be back at least two days or three days of the week. Therefore, maybe I have to think about eldercare. Maybe I have to think about child care, you know, or lining up another pet sitter because I haven't had one for 18 months. They're giving them time to prepare for all that. And they're being very clear about their expectations when it comes to return. Also very clear about what return looks like. So those are all the kinds of things that leaders of organizations of any size really need to be doing, even if they punted into early 2022 for any kind of return to the corporate workplace.
Rob Johnson [00:16:23] Yeah, sure. Well, and here are a few things we need to talk about, too, Eileen, to keep CEOs awake at night as it relates to retaining talent, according to that same PWC report that you just referenced, the number one reason. So I'm going to give you four top reasons that our employees are leaving their current their current companies. This is how the employees ranked it. And then the number I give you afterwards is what employers say people are telling them about why they're leaving. So it's not going to exactly shake up one, two, three, four. So I want people to understand, number one is wages and salaries, which is not a surprise. Forty one percent of employers say this is the reason their workers are leaving. Number two on this list is benefits. Twenty three percent of employers are citing that as a reason. The employees cited that is the number two reason number three, according to employees, is career advancement. And thirty three percent of employers confirmed that as a reason. And here's an interesting number for flexibility, which was probably down the list at some point. But executives are now saying that this is a reason thirty four percent of the time. Thirty four percent of the time. I would contend that number for the flexibility issue is certainly grown during the pandemic. Part of it can be ascribed to the working environments millennials desire. And it's also the fact that people are now used to work remote work, which many prefer. And in some companies and I have a couple of clients that had really tremendous years working remotely best years ever in some cases. And so when you're saying we got to come back and people like, no, we don't. We just had our best year ever. Yeah. You want to mess with success. Come on!
Eileen Rochford [00:18:06] Yeah. Yeah. Wait a second. I don't have to commute.
Rob Johnson [00:18:10] Right.
Eileen Rochford [00:18:12] We need more money. I had the biggest bonus I've ever had. And you're telling me now I got to go back.
Rob Johnson [00:18:18] I got to grind it out and come back.
Eileen Rochford [00:18:19] And that's a challenging communications issue right there.
Rob Johnson [00:18:22] That is a really challenging communications issue. And I will tell you that the company I'm thinking about is allowing a part in person the hybrid situation. So giving real flexibility to it. So they're not being you know, kind of heavy handed and saying, all right, everybody's coming back, come hell or high water, you all are coming back to the office. I think they understand that those days are probably over, even though they're not going to put a press release out saying, yeah, those days are over.
Eileen Rochford [00:18:54] And I just want to go back to something you mentioned, it's largely, maybe I think you said that millennials really desire, you know, this flexibility. I mean, that's true. But the flip side, interestingly. The younger workforce and even the interns that we have this summer who were twenty one, they didn't like remote, they felt very disengaged, disconnected. They want to be with people. They want to be, you know, socializing and chatting and going for drinks after work and all the things that seem so exciting about being in the workforce. So, yeah, I don't know if it's really like an age band, if you will, as much as it is the normalcy that's been created from the use of these technologies, for example, one of my siblings, she's in her 50s, she has worked for nonprofit organizations in mental health for a long time. And the organization that she was a part of, I would describe it as kind of more traditional in its structure. And they had an office and it was definitely everyone came to the office every day. They had to completely reinvent themselves, I mean, from the ground up in terms of how they worked and learned to use these technologies and all that. And now she's personally just so sold on it. And I don't know if that organization really will go back to its prior model again. I don't know. That remains to be seen. But it's still it's just interesting to see how organizations of all shapes and sizes and different sectors, even those that were largely very traditional, conservative in structure and operation, have used this as a reinvention opportunity and to seize on the technologies that make it possible to do that, which also, particularly for nonprofits, when you think about it, saves a ton of money, Right?
Rob Johnson [00:21:07] We're getting into that a little bit later as it relates to how CEOs view travel and things of that nature and the cost savings that they see. So we're going to dive into that a little bit later. But it's a real thing. And when you have the ability to look at what you do and say, I can save so much money and I can retain efficiencies and it's less cumbersome on my workforce. I mean, that's a part of an appealing and compelling argument.
Eileen Rochford [00:21:39] Another thing that's hard to argue with. Yeah. So let's add a little more fuel to this fire, if you will. There's a few sobering nuggets from economist Stephen Moore recently who rightly points out that many major companies like Apple, Amazon, Facebook and the like are pushing back return to office until later this year and into early 2022. He further predicts that many companies that do let their employees come back to the office will require vaccinations. We touched on this earlier, and that's putting a stake in the ground. And the pushing back the return dates will have a chilling effect on commercial real estate in places like Chicago and San Francisco. And there's no doubt about that.
Rob Johnson [00:22:24] I mean, you saw that comment. I mean, the whole commercial real estate issue, I think people saw probably a year ago as an issue like how do I get out of my lease? How do I change my lease? How do I downsize my lease? I mean, all of those things, those are real things and those are real discussions that are happening right now. And as it relates to, you know, some of these big companies, the Apples and Amazons and Facebook's everybody, we said it earlier, everybody was like, all right, it's spring, it's Memorial Day. Now it's Labor Day. And I think people want Labor Day in maybe October 15th. But if you keep, as you pointed out earlier Eileen, if you push it, you can't say, let's return to office on November 15th. You've got your Thanksgiving holiday, you've got Christmas coming up Christmas holiday. I mean, my contention is and I'm you know, I'm no expert on commercial real estate or return to office protocols or I'm not I'm not a I'm not a, you know, chief operating officer at all. But if I had to guess if you can't get everybody back in the office by October 15th, you might as well push it to 2022.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:34] Yeah. And if I was that CFO, I'd be kicking myself for not having canceled the lease before now.
Rob Johnson [00:23:40] Right. Right.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:41] You know, hindsight's 2020. It is just nobody knew that it was going to come raging back.
Rob Johnson [00:23:51] Not with everybody vaccinated. Well, we were, but the thing is, the majority of the people were vaccinated. So I think and more could be, of course. But I don't I think with that in mind, it was like, oh, people are vaccinated, so we're going to be OK. And then this Delta variant comes and you can still be vaccinated and get it. It won't be as bad as it would be if you weren't vaccinated. But I don't think anybody knew that it was going to be that, you know, that strong, especially with the vaccinations, you know, hundreds of millions of people being vaccinated.
Eileen Rochford [00:24:28] Right! I was just thinking about Stephen Moore's prediction of employers requiring vaccinations for a minute. And, you know, in cases where they basically own kind of their corporate headquarters or campus. That's a controllable situation, but if you're in a building with lots of other companies and you're all entering through common areas, front doors, and elevators, like that, certainly complicates matters. So that's something that I mean, this is just not it's not my area of expertise, but it certainly isn't as an employee. If I were encountering that from my perspective since I'm pro-vaccine and pro-science. Yeah, I would feel comforted knowing that the folks I was working with day to day most closely were also vaccinated. And therefore, my family members who may be immunocompromised are not. They need to be vaccinated in such a safe. But having to walk through those front doors, not knowing, you know, good thing we have an indoor mask mandate. In Chicago and Illinois.
Rob Johnson [00:25:44] No, so there's no debate there, it's like you walk in, you put it on, you do that sort of thing. My issue also, too, was, you know, I'm doing this to protect my family, but I'm also doing it to protect other people, too, or just at the very least, to make them feel more comfortable. I don't know if me putting on a mask or getting vaccinated. I don't know if that's really going to help them. But if I think it is and they think it is, then it is.
Eileen Rochford [00:26:11] Yeah. You know, in the mask is proven to. Yes, absolutely. Have efficacy in minimizing exposure. There's no doubt about that. Yeah, I agree with you. I have an immunocompromised brother in law. Not that I'm able to see him right now, but I think of him and I think that's something I would never do, is risk his health just because I wanted to be obstinant or whatever.
Rob Johnson [00:26:34] Yeah, yeah. And I have a brother with Down's Syndrome that many people know about, and he wasn't able to see my family. You lived ten minutes away. He wasn't able to see them or he was able to see them. He wasn't able to hug them or touch them for a year because all the people in that facility are my brother, isn't his health is fine, but a lot of them are immunocompromised. And they would go and hang out in the parking lot from 20 feet away and like, hey, you know, and so, you know, that was tough. But back to back to these companies, though, here's something I want people to consider. This is according to a Wall Street Journal article. Some companies are thinking that because of the unpredictable nature of the variance, I mean, we've got Delta and right now. But who's not to say we have Gamma and Lamda and whatever. Some offices will remain shuttered for at least two years. And that particular article, Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger, shared the belief that remote and hybrid work will continue for years to come. I can't say that I'm surprised by that, but it's interesting to have a big time CEO that's come out and say, yeah, this is happening for a while. And, you know, whenever I do training for clients or for sales teams and things of that nature, everybody's like, well, this is kind of important. But once we get back in the room, we'll be fine. And I was telling him that in the spring, this may last longer than you think. And this is even before I knew that the Delta variant was going to be a thing. Yeah, but I had a feeling that this was back then. I thought it was just because of the cost savings I thought was just going to be because CEOs said, oh, my gosh, I can save so much money by not traveling. But now that's an issue along with it's not safe.
Eileen Rochford [00:28:13] Now it's the double whammy now. Yeah. So there's another message to our listeners for sure, which is if you haven't made the effort as a company and at least as a management team to get good, really good at this, we'll call it remote or even hybrid style of communicating with your customers. That's an absolute imperative. And if you're making the choice to postpone a significant return to office too early 2022, you've got a little runway there. Yeah. Don't squander it. Take advantage of this time, because what we're going to talk about next, which is business travel and the impact, we're going to be like this, you know, whether it's 60/40 or whatever, it's a significant amount of our work life that we will be conducting in a virtual manner. Therefore, getting really good at this is important. It should be at the top of your priority list.
Rob Johnson [00:29:19] Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
Eileen Rochford [00:29:21] There's a lot of nuance to it as well.
Rob Johnson [00:29:22] There is.
Eileen Rochford [00:29:23] So Bloomberg surveyed CEOs recently on business travel and it's just absolutely conclusive, the findings that business travel is forever changed. Innovative new communications technologies have made pre pandemic business trips history. Some say tools such as high definition, augmented reality headgear that replaced in person site visits to plants might mean no more crisscrossing the globe for months on end for salespeople. And here's an upside. No more jet lag.
Rob Johnson [00:29:57] Yes. Oh gosh. I'm sure a lot of people like I can get on board with that.
Eileen Rochford [00:30:03] So CEOs are seeing the upside in many ways of staying put. There's the huge cost savings. There's the time savings. I mean, how much did I hate all that time that I wasted or how much taxis or Oh, my God, whatever. Time savings, obviously, health and safety risks are lower or sorry, health and safety risks are lower. And this is big. I'm going to flag it lower carbon emissions. Yes. Airplane travel is just a massive contributor. Sure. As a car and everything else, but really airplane in particular. So the pandemic has deleted the prior taboo of video meetings, which I just love so much. Now it's the norm. Awesome. And a lot of these people are asking, why should we go back, especially after they prove that they can be successful without all that travel and same, right. working from home or remotely having successful. You're going to tell me that I can't be now. That's not right. Right. Those are really going to be hard to make a case for adding any of those massive travel expenses back into their budgets. And others are asking, so what will be the impact on our interpersonal skills and relationships without the ability to sit with people, have meals of people, be in a conference room and pick up on all of these facial cues that you don't really get the benefit of body language that you can't see fully, you know, when you're just the top portion.
Rob Johnson [00:31:32] hard to read the body language from the shoulders up, isn't it?
Eileen Rochford [00:31:35] Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And others predict that if accounts are lost, they're going to be the first ones to get on a plane, go back and win their business from their customer because they think maybe that's the reason I disagree that that can't be the only reason I there's no way to. Yeah, but what if clients and customers no longer care about face to face and they question the associated expense and risks, let alone the impact to sustainability. Right. What then? What's it going to mean? It's going to be so many things, how can businesses operate differently so that their service and relationships thrive in the new no travel world.
Rob Johnson [00:32:18] And you know what's interesting about all of this is the perception, because you just referenced it, you lose an account and then you go, we're hopping back on the plane and fly into San Francisco. We're going to get that one back. Right. But you're also making the assumption in that regard that the people on the other end, the clients, the potential clients are the ones that expect this. And I would say that one of the major concerns to airlines is going to be what you just alluded to, especially those that specialize in business travel. United Airlines comes to mind first and foremost because they're very heavily business travel oriented. And I've had more than a client or to begin talking about the value of spending the thousands of dollars wining and dining clients and potential clients. That's what I was getting to a second ago. If you don't fly their business class, you can't take them out for a steak dinner with a couple of expensive bottles of wine. And is that really what the client demands these days? And I've talked to people who are on that other side who say, you know, that was always fun, but I don't have to have that as I move forward as a business person, you don't need to go spend 10 grand on me in a day to let me know that you love me. I mean, these are huge cost savings that cannot be ignored by CFOs and C Suite leaders everywhere because they are right in your face. What if I didn't have to give that guy, you know, two hundred and fifty thousand dollar expense account to woo our clients? I mean, that's big money. That's a lot of savings.
Eileen Rochford [00:33:53] And I think what folks need to appreciate, really, really appreciate is the shift in perceptions that are taking place right now. Knowing that that money isn't being spent on travel. Customers and clients are going to and the time savings. Right. More and more they're going to look at these relationships and say, where are you reinvesting in me? Where are you improving your client service, making it much more tailored to my situation? How are you advancing your technologies so that we can work better together, those kinds of investments? Right. I just don't think the risk or the pitfall here that I see that's most dangerous to business leaders is. Operating from a perspective of how it was is the way it's going to continue to be, and this is one of those great examples right now, it's not going to continue to be. And the sooner that everyone understands that and adapts and realizes that because this all happened in such a rapid state in a short period of time. The expectation of things continuing to improve, shift, adapt rapidly has been created, so take the time to recognize that's how people are going to think. Now, I want more from those I'm doing business with, and I know that their budgets have been expanded to do that. So that's a pretty interesting thing, you know, to kind of put the thought into the minds of not just the highest level executives, but everyone who interacts, particularly in a customer and client environment.
Rob Johnson [00:35:49] Absolutely. I mean, it's I mean, the times have changed and everybody that's pining for the good old days, they're going to be waiting for a while because I've really felt like things were changing, you know, a year ago based on being in the midst of this covid situation that nobody knew the way out of. And then once the vaccine started coming in, we started coming out of it and they're like, all right, we're back. And then you're like, oh, no, we're not. This could happen. We could do this back and forth for several years. It's possible. I don't know. I don't know that we will be, but we could be. And you need to have your key components in place for the way that you do business so that you don't go, oh, gosh, I thought we were coming back and I thought we were going to do business the old way and we can't do that. So let's revert back to what we were doing. If you have that, if you're able to stay nimble in that regard, not only are you going to save money, but you're also going to be able to react quicker to the ever changing realities of the workforce.
Eileen Rochford [00:36:48] And the way that I like to think about it and I think might sum it up nicely, is we didn't hit a pause button. Right. That's not what happened here. This was a reckoning. That's what this was on every level. Right. So we don't just get to click it back on and start watching the program again. Totally different. Right. So one thing that I just want to add, because I personally I really find this fascinating and I just love it personally, honestly, because of my ideology. I just love that carbon emissions concerns and employee well-being are the top reasons for reconsidering travel next to cost savings. That just makes me like my heart sing, particularly because I'm sure so many of our listeners paid attention just about two weeks ago. Now, the most recent just. Terrifying reports on climate change and how much more dire that outlook is right now. You know, companies should be under pressure to cut back the overall impact on carbon emissions. I think that's a good thing. That's just another example of how this reckoning, as I call it, has created a heck of a lot of good. Right. Again, just personal opinion, but that's in terms of the communications implications of that for our listeners and business leaders. They need to remember that it's people will be thinking about that now. Oh, well, why are we still doing all that travel when we know so clearly how much that impacts our environment that's already so damaged and at risk? Why is your company doing that? We don't want you to do that. You know, perceptions are going to be attached to that.
Rob Johnson [00:38:31] agreed. Right.
Eileen Rochford [00:38:34] So not recognizing this as a potential brand threat would be super shortsighted, just very shortsighted to listeners. And I think people just overall, they're going to be paying more attention to this. And it's interesting, tack corporate travel up there as the issue.
Rob Johnson [00:38:49] Right. How did that make that on the list? I know earlier you thought maybe I perhaps overstated the millennials a little bit too much in the prior conversation about, you know, the way people wanted to have work flexibility. But I can say this with all certainty. This new generation seems to be driving a lot of these decisions that are being made or the companies feel that they have to make. Millennials, as we've referenced many a time on this podcast, have different concerns and ideas about what should be going on at the corporate level, what their companies should be doing, the good they should be doing in the world, not just making money, but doing good in the world. And even if many of them are not in the C Suite yet, they are applying pressure on those who are to do the right thing. And I've quoted this before, and it's fascinating to me that nine years from now, 2030 5 percent of the workforce is going to be millennials. And so these values that are, you know, the whole carbon emissions thing and just the workplace empathy, I mean, just the way that you conduct yourself in the workplace, these are things that are not going away. This is not a trend or a fad. And business leaders need to understand that. I think many of the good ones do understand.
Eileen Rochford [00:40:12] And that doesn't mean, yeah, every company is a democracy now, not ruled by, you know, by 30 year olds right now or not last year or even that the C suite has less power. That's not it at all. No, it's just a matter of thinking about that. Again, perceptions, perceptions of your younger employees, many of whom have been deeply involved in different causes and effecting change even within the last five years. And when they see that, that's when they exert that effort, they make their beliefs known, their ideologies and values known. They create an outcome that's positive. So It's a matter of opening up of minds of leaders to listen more and to incorporate where they can, you know, to allow these folks who are younger, who work in the organization to feel that they do have a stake and they do have a voice. That's a very important communication.
Rob Johnson [00:41:24] And that wasn't always the way I mean, you know, you could be the boss ten years ago and it could be a monologue. And here's what we're going to do and here's how we're going to do it. And here's why we're going to do. And that was the end of the conversation. And now it's very much a dialog. That doesn't mean the younger workers get their way, but they certainly get their say.
Eileen Rochford [00:41:41] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And to put a cap on that, Edelman just got early in August, I think released some very recent research on this exact topic. Right. And what it showed, and I recall, is that their recent wave showed that today's belief-driven employee is kind of the workforce version of the belief-driven consumer, as they called it. So they've got similar stakes in performance and outcomes. So it's time. I love this. I believe this was even in the snippet of description from Edelman's report. It's time for a reexamination of the employee-employer compact and a request of employee value proposition.
Rob Johnson [00:42:28] Well, they say it's time for I would contend that the time is already right in front of us. For those of us who are fighting it. Yeah, maybe the time has come. And for those who are embracing it and understanding it, it's already happening.
Eileen Rochford [00:42:45] No question there's a lot to kind of grapple with as we look to hopefully the short term of being able to return to being more together in corporate or organizational settings. Right. There's just a ton of issues to kind of make sure that that leaders are factoring into whatever plans that they're building and how they're working with all the folks and they're, you know, on their teams, their not just their immediate teams, but their full employee teams. It's very different, even, I would say, than it was, what, 18 months ago, pre-pandemic. And that's an incredible shift to have happened in such a short period of time. And a lot of it was coming, you know, due to if you look at just kind of how much history has been made just in the last three years, that will forever be imprinted on, you know. In our past and just massive waves, so a lot of this has been coming. I think the smart leaders are recognizing I don't have time to waste. I can't pretend that these things don't impact how I run my company? Yeah, yeah. It's all it's all so important.
Rob Johnson [00:44:12] Yeah. I think it's really important, though, to as we sort of wrap things up here, is we always like to give people an idea of where do you go for resources, where do you look. And I would suggest, Eileen and I hope you agree that if you take a look at that PWC report, take a look at The Wall Street Journal, take a look at economist Stephen Moore. Take a look at Edelman. Edelman's always such a great resource. Anyway, take a look at the Bloomberg report about the travel, because it's really fascinating.
Eileen Rochford [00:44:40] I would endorse that. Absolutely. I don't open my eyes to things that I absolutely had not considered.
Rob Johnson [00:44:47] Well, and, you know, I might have thought about them, but when you read things like that, it just reinforces something that you've thought, OK, I think I see that coming and then that's coming. I mean, they just found out that know a large majority of CEOs are going to, you know, severely alter their travel plans and budget and budgets. And they have come up with other ways, the ways you express before. So when people, you know, at the end of the podcast, when they say, well, how can I find out more about this? We can provide information that you can go to to make sure that you can can can read up and and and follow up on it.
Eileen Rochford [00:45:31] We will have links to all of these studies and articles that we referenced in the show notes. Yes. Well, I will absolutely make sure that those are included.
Rob Johnson [00:45:41] Yes. And that's an easy one. I mean, just simple links to click on. And it really provides great context, I think, to the conversation that we're having today.
Eileen Rochford [00:45:50] Yeah. And I'm really interested to hear from our listeners, too, so please reach out to us. We'll have that. Also in our show notes email, either one of us we/re eager to hear, what are you experiencing in your organizations? What are you thinking about when it comes to any of these areas of change? And what are your plans for return to office? And we're always interested in hearing from folks who are turning into the show. And if you have ideas for future topics, we definitely want to hear from you.
Rob Johnson [00:46:20] Or guests. We have guests periodically, sometimes just us. Sometimes you bring a guest on. And so if you would like to hear from some leader, if there's something in particular on a topic or a leadership issue, we want to hear from you about that as well.
Eileen Rochford [00:46:35] So that'll do it for this episode of Can You Hear Me? I'm Eileen Rochford of the Harbinger Group.
Rob Johnson [00:46:41] And I'm Rob Johnson of Rob Johnson Communications on our next episode of Can You Hear Me? Very Excited about this one. We're going to welcome newly minted Ulta CEO Dave Kimbell is our guest to talk about his goals for the company and how he's building his CEO brand. And we thank you for joining us today. And we hope you'll listen next time as well. Thanks for joining us.