In this episode of "Can You Hear Me?", co-hosts Eileen Rochford and Rob Johnson tackle the issue of outdated and problematic business practices that persist in today's workplace. From micromanagement that stifles creativity to unlimited PTO, they discuss which corporate behaviors need a serious update for the modern business world. Join them for an honest conversation about creating healthier, more productive work environments.
Rob Johnson: [00:00:19] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Can You Hear Me? Podcast. I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communication. [00:00:25][6.1]
Eileen Rochford: [00:00:26] And I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of The Harbinger Group, a marketing and strategy firm. Today we're talking about business practices that we believe need to change. You know, these those things that make us all roll our eyes, but somehow they still persist in the workplace. I know you and I both have some very strong opinions about what those things should be. But let's start with you. What practices in the workplace would you like to see disappear, say, in 2025? [00:00:54][28.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:00:55] Well, I got to tell you there, the list is pretty long. And I know we only have a certain amount of time, so I know we're going to hit our the ones that are most top of mind for us. So I've got a couple of practices I think really need to go. The first one I want to talk about is micromanaging. You know, the leaders who can't seem to let their team members take a single breath without supervision. It's not just annoying. It's actually harmful to both productivity and morale. And I'm surprised in 2024, we're still talking about micro managers because have you ever heard, Eileen, somebody say so-and-so's a micromanager and he he or she out there and they everybody loves them. They're the best boss ever. Have you ever heard that ever in your professional life? Because I haven't. [00:01:38][43.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:01:39] No, No, I have to agree. Micromanaging is probably one of the more irritating tendencies in a manager. No doubt about that. And you have to wonder, like, what is making it persist amongst kind of human behavior? Like what? What is it that drives a person to feel that they need to be that way, especially after having heard for so long that people hate it? I think there would be a lot more of an effort to abolish the tendency to micromanage. But it's still here. [00:02:06][27.4]
Rob Johnson: [00:02:07] It's still here. And the other thing is, I said it a second ago. Nobody ever says they're their micromanager. They're awesome. They're the best. But does it also. Does it also reflect a lack of self-awareness? If certainly if you're a boss anywhere, you know that people don't like to be micromanaged and yet maybe your personality is such where you just can't help yourself. So that's part of the story is the other part of the story. There's no self-awareness because if you were self-aware by definition, wouldn't you say, You know what, My my people are not responding to this, you know, helicopter boss thing. [00:02:41][34.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:02:42] Yeah, totally. Absolutely. Self-awareness has to be or lack thereof has to be part of the reason why it persists. I totally agree with that observation in this. I don't know if 360 degree performance reviews even exist anymore. I really wouldn't know. I haven't heard about them in quite a while. But the opportunity for people on your team to give feedback into how you're doing, either as a manager or as a member of the team, even in places or cultures where that kind of feedback is welcome, whether it's formal or not, I don't imagine people are going to feel like that's that's like the third rail. You know, I can criticize my manager. I can't criticize the department head. That's totally going to there's going to be backlash on me for that. Yeah. Places I'm sure that's still the case. So I don't want to go there. Has got to foster the ability for managers like that to still exist. So that's something to examine for sure. To get rid of it. [00:03:39][56.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:03:39] I don't want to get too far off the beaten path because we're talking about micro managers and you're not a micromanager, but you just brought up an interesting point about like a 360 review as the boss. Do you welcome that sort of feedback from people on occasion? Yes, It's hard to get it. It's hard because it's like I don't want upset the boss, right? [00:03:57][18.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:03:58] Yeah. So they'll frequently hear me say things like when I. Frankly, I truly want Frank feedback because I'm a pretty frank person. But they'll hear me say things like, Look, I am not looking for flattery here. I want the answer, you know? Right. And so I guess maybe that's how you create a culture, is by really being adamant that. [00:04:17][19.0]
Rob Johnson: [00:04:17] I always try to let people know when I want feedback, real feedback, that I'm not fishing for a compliment. That's what I'll say. I'm like, I'm not fishing for a compliment. I just need you to be perfectly honest and frank. Great word about how this relationship's going, how my part of it's going in your eyes and that matters. [00:04:34][17.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:04:35] It does? [00:04:35][0.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:04:36] Yeah. Micromanaging. That's one. That's. That's, you know, historically unfortunate. Right. What do you have? What's what's something that's on the top of your mind At the top of your list? [00:04:45][9.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:04:46] Okay. Here's one that I find super creepy. And it's it's been written about quite a bit in the last few years, how employers are using technology to track their employees, as in where are they? How often or how long are they online? What are they doing when they're online? And this is still a thing which is wildly shocking and always seems to me like this is got to be some kind of invasion of privacy. But it isn't of it isn't. I mean, when you really think about it from a legal perspective, there's they have. Every right. Right. But why? Why do they need to do that? That has got to sit with culture. So if you have a culture where trust cannot be fostered because of the way that your managers behave, like maybe the micromanaging, who knows those kinds of things that erode trust. If that's present, then yeah, you're probably going to feel like, I need to stay on top of these people by tracking their whereabouts, tracking their activities. But surveillance in general, my opinion, that whole word, that idea, it just creates a culture of distrust and which ultimately will decrease productivity because employees feel they're being watched, they're not being valued. And that's just a combination or a recipe for disaster. [00:06:04][77.9]
Rob Johnson: [00:06:04] You know what I was thinking when you said this, I was like, my gosh, we're talking about the same thing. This is the new tool for the micromanager. Like, my gosh, I can track you. [00:06:13][8.1]
Eileen Rochford: [00:06:13] God, you're right. [00:06:13][0.4]
Rob Johnson: [00:06:14] I mean, think about that. That's what it is. And again, to the point we were making about micromanaging, because this falls under that, I think nobody ever says, you know what, I love it that they're always tracking my every, you know, you know, mouse click or whatever. Like nobody says that. [00:06:31][16.9]
Eileen Rochford: [00:06:31] No. [00:06:31][0.0]
Rob Johnson: [00:06:31] But you know what people end up doing because I've heard anecdotally about this from other people who get micromanaged, who get tracked like this. You spend part of the day trying to figure out how to do their work around like their apps and other things where it looks like you're doing something even though you're not. I'm like, so so not only does it create distrust to the point you were making, I mean, it also creates work for somebody who's like, you know what? They don't deserve to know every little nuance about what I'm doing. And so I'm going to spend time trying to figure out the workaround. And then you're spending time on that and not on what your job. [00:07:07][35.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:07:07] Yeah. Talk about a decrease in productivity. [00:07:09][1.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:07:11] No, absolutely. Because because if somebody is going to introduce this kind of technology, then somebody else is going to say, well, what's the what's the workaround? And I will say this, too, as a parent, we both have, you know, kids that are getting a little bit older now, but we both have 19 year olds. And I he's lived away from home because he played hockey. You know, he left home at like 15. And I never used like 360. People would be like, why wouldn't you know? You've got to know where your kid is. I'm like, I don't need to know where my kid is all the time. He has a phone. He has the ability to text. He knows if mom or dad call or text if it's important to do that. But from a personal standpoint, I don't even like it because I don't need to know. I don't want to know what somebody is doing at every hour of the day. And that certainly translates to what you're talking about professionally. But I don't even like it personally. [00:08:00][48.9]
Eileen Rochford: [00:08:00] No, I don't either. It's funny. Speaking of our 19 year olds, my 19 year old, she uses it with all her friends. They'll do they use find my phone. They've all shared the locations all over. And, you know, part of me was like, well, that's smart. You know, you're women on a college campus. I think that's really you. [00:08:15][14.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:08:15] Know, that's a no for that. That's perfectly yeah, sure. [00:08:17][2.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:08:17] Really? But they're like looking at where's my boyfriend right now? Right. [00:08:20][2.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:08:20] And that is the problem. [00:08:22][2.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:08:23] Not. Okay. Right. [00:08:24][1.4]
Rob Johnson: [00:08:25] And, you know, you know, again, this is we're veering off the path a little bit, but it is relevant to it. My son will do Snapchat, you know, and apparently they have this thing where like, you know, Jayden's in Boston today or, you know, whatever, he turns his off because he doesn't want everybody to know where he is. Yeah. Like all of his friends like, Penn State, they're here. They're, you know, all over the place. You can see him right now. And he'll be like, I'm turning mine off because I don't want everybody to know where I am. And I'm like, I get it now. [00:08:50][24.8]
Eileen Rochford: [00:08:50] And it's weird that people know because like, people with nefarious intent, including employers. Yeah. Knowing where you are or what you're doing, it's. It just opens up Pandora's box. In my opinion. Plenty of companies use it. I get it. They have reasons like even, say, for delivery drivers, you know, fleet management, transportation companies. Yes, of course they're gonna want to know where all their trucks are and where their drivers are. And there's an element of, you know, security and safety built into that. I think in that application it's fine, but not perhaps for kind of the white collar, you know, let's call it a desk worker type of job. It's it's just frankly creepy in a lot of ways. So I got to question the reasoning why a company thinks they need to have that right. [00:09:33][43.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:09:34] And your point about the fleet thing, you know, knowing where your vehicles are, that's fair enough. But I will say in my old career, they had just started tracking all the vehicles because you need to know. And from a when I was news business, it's like where who's close to, you know, the western burbs. There's a breaking news story. We need to know who's like for that. It made sense and and and I never bristled with that. And then on occasion it was, you know, where are you guys where I thought you were coming back. Like, if we stop for ten minutes and eat lunch on the way back from, you know, whatever, and it's like where, you know, it's like, bad. I don't like. [00:10:08][34.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:10:08] No eating is allowed. Yes, it is. [00:10:10][2.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:10:11] Like, sorry, I'm sorry. I slacked off today and on my way back I, you know, stop for eight some. On the go? Well, God forbid. But but but the whole idea of knowing where your, you know, vehicles were so you could, you know, cover things that made sense. [00:10:26][14.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:10:26] Yeah, Just there are there are some logical applications. Yes. Yes, of course. But that whole idea of what are you doing when you're on your computer, are you actually using the tools you should be using? That's creepy. Yeah. [00:10:38][11.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:10:38] So another thing that really I just really dislike is professional ghosting. And this isn't necessarily something that I deal with a lot. I've dealt with it on occasion. I've seen clients deal with it though more frequently, and it is becoming increasingly common. And it to me it's just not acceptable. Whether it's candidates who don't show up for interviews and you're counting on them, it's clients who disappear mid project or companies that would go silent after multiple interview rounds with candidates. Hey you're you're you made the shortlist or hey this or that. Then all of a sudden nothing. I just think it's unprofessional. It needs to stop. Why people do it is beyond me, although I've done a little research on it and it's just I think it's frankly, I think it's emotional immaturity. That's one of the things to to to chalk it up to. But the other thing is, just have the courtesy. If you're going to give me bad news or if you're going to you know, if you have to communicate something that's not positive, don't go hide. Because I'm like, well, that's weird. Or somebody would be like, That's weird. They need to communicate that. Yeah. And people are doing it with increasing frequency and I really don't like it. And and most of the time it doesn't even impact me, but it impacts productivity. It impacts the way you feel about the people you're in business with if they're doing that to you. [00:11:59][80.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:11:59] Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:00][0.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:12:00] I just it just makes me absolutely cringe. [00:12:02][2.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:12:03] Yeah. One of the most unprofessional things out there right now in terms of workplace trends. Absolutely. I agree with you. And it's conflict avoidance. You know, people don't know how to deal with mild friction. There's so many reasons. But I agree with you, The characterization of emotional immaturity is probably at the root of it all. I think people just should remember the whole golden rule, do unto others, right? And that's pretty simple life. It's so simple. Definitely. But sometimes I think people are answering questions, say, perhaps from vendors or potential partners because they don't have the answer at that moment. And they're they have other priorities right in front of them. But to just take the second and say, I know I asked you for your time and and you committed it and gave it to us and deeply grateful for that. I'm working to get an answer. So so we can close this loop. I haven't forgotten about you, and I'm going to do that. Forgive me, but it could be a couple weeks until you hear back from me just saying that is enough. So what? My point is, think about even if you feel like you don't have the time to respond to that email or that text or voicemail, know that or you don't have the answer to give to that person. Know that a simple response of I don't know will protect your relationship beyond measure versus never responding to them. So you're going to damage it forever if you don't do that. So it's a it's a matter of, you know, maybe five minutes of your time, but do the courteous thing and respond. [00:13:30][87.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:13:32] Well, amen to that. Amen to everything you just said. And five minutes is that number is a little high in my opinion. I'm talking about 30s. Maybe a minute. It's a text. It's an email. It's the point you're making. Don't have an answer for you yet. Bear with me. I'll get back to you. I'll just have. That just took 10s. I'm sorry. [00:13:49][17.1]
Eileen Rochford: [00:13:49] But then you have to do the work to get the answer. So. [00:13:51][1.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:13:52] But then you have to do the work to get the answer. But you also don't leave people hanging around. And my point about when people don't communicate, when there is this ghosting, whether it be, you know, permanent or temporary or whatever the case is, if you're on the other end of that, you're imagining scenarios for why things aren't going the way you want them to, and then you're wasting time on your end like, what about this? Or what if that means that I want to? And then all of a sudden, let's say somebody didn't have the answer. And that's happened recently, didn't have an answer, but then said, I have the I didn't get back to use. I don't know the answer, but now I have the answer. Word go. So so the news was good. The news was good. It was the outcome that that, you know, the client wanted. Yeah, but the time that was spent going well, I don't know, like, I thought they were all in, I thought they, you know, liked the presentation or whatever the case was. So energy was wasted for no reason at all. And if somebody who's listening to this who has been ghosted, they totally get this. And if you are the ghost or you may not get it entirely, but we're just telling you, you just have the courtesy. 15 30s to to, you know, just communicate the fact that you're not ready to proceed at the moment. Yeah. And yes, you will have to go get the answer. Yes, you will have to put in the work. But what's the alternative? You're just going to never talk to that person again. You've had this back and forth, this relationship, and all of a sudden, like you're just going to dodge them forever. Is that the plan? Because it's not a very good one. [00:15:17][84.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:15:17] No, it's not. And I think just recognizing that ambiguity, particularly protracted ambiguity, really all it does is create emotional distress, honestly, for all involved because you're threatened even as the person who's not responding and you're having to, like hide, cower. None of that feels good. And that leads me to my second thing that I would like to abolish, because it's ambiguous and therefore really impossible to maintain successfully. And that's this concept of unlimited PTO paid time off, right? So, yes, of course, that sounds phenomenal on paper when you're reading a job description that you're going to apply for. Heck yeah, sign me up. But of course, everyone knows it's too good to be true. Like, what does that really mean and how much can I actually take? Those are all the questions that come to mind and come up. So I find it to be counterproductive because it is ambiguous and it's intentionally ambiguous. Right. And I think I've just come to recognize that it's it hurts people more than helps them because studies have shown employees with unlimited PTO, they actually take less time off than those with them. Then at companies that have kind of the traditional policies, meaning tiers based on your level of experience, seniority, whatever, here's how many paid time off days or weeks you get, and it's part of your benefits package. And it's really clear it's an addition to sick time that's legally mandated. It's an addition to paid holidays that the company acknowledges and closes for. But it's very clear, you know, exactly how much that you have to use. And here's why. The unlimited PTO, it just doesn't work. There's there's this pressure amongst team members and companies. This has been proven where that's their policy. It's almost like this, what's I can't take too much time off. And so it's only took ten days. I can't take any more than that. Even though based on your level, you probably were entitled to three weeks off in in kind of the normal structure. And so that's not okay. I'd feel pretty ripped off if that were the case. Right. Nobody knows how much is enough or how much is okay. Where is the too much line? People just don't know that. Also, there's the really negative aspect of when they leave. There's no accrued time off, paid out. If you live in a or work in a place where that's the policy we have, use it or lose that policy, which is totally fair because frankly, I want everyone to take their time off. Right. And I'm adamant about that. It's nobody's productive if you don't. We actually go through planning exercises every three months, even at the start of the year, as much as we can projecting when will I take time off? So you can secure your time and know that you know, okay, well, we can't all eight people can't be off at the same time or in the department. Right. You know, so we figure that out. And, you know, there's it's very it's not a very fair way. We really don't have those problems where everyone wants the same day off. It's quite rare. But it's my opinion that clearly defined PTO policies actually encourage people to use their time off and do so without guilt and therefore they're maintaining their health and wellbeing on a sustained basis. I'd like to see the unlimited PTO mirage erased. That's my opinion. [00:18:35][198.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:18:36] Based on talking to other leaders and CEOs. Is that is the wind shifting in that direction? [00:18:43][6.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:18:44] It's so hard to say. It really is. I Most of our clients have defined here's how many days off each person gets. [00:18:51][7.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:18:52] Do you do that at The Harbinger Group too? Is that is that clearly defined like right here for you? [00:18:55][3.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:18:56] It's in your fine letter. Yes, it's in your offer letter. Absolutely. And annually it gets documented. It's, of course, increased. You know, the longer that you're with the company you get additional days. Yeah. Put into your package as it should be. Right. So but you do reach a point like I know some folks who work with even a few of our client contacts, they've been at their organization so long and they have so much time off that they just never. [00:19:21][24.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:19:21] Take. [00:19:21][0.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:19:21] They take the pay off at the end of the year because they're there. Their organizations have the accrued paid time on time. Yeah. So but they don't just let it ride until you leave. They close at the end of each year and pay you for time that you didn't take part. But there is a maximum attached to that, which I think is healthy because again, why would someone work themselves into the ground? But they might because they think that they need the extra money. But that's counterproductive to just as the unlimited PTO policy is. [00:19:49][27.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:19:49] But also, you raise an interesting point where when you start talking about this subject, you're like, unlimited PTO is going to take as much as they can. But you brought up a really good point, which is human nature says people would be like, Well, I don't want to take as much time as that per I should be taking less. So so there's maybe a sometimes a challenge to not take as much time off and then you're not taking the time off that you're allowed. So not putting fences up around this benefit ends up being counterproductive. Give for not only you, the boss, but the people who work for you. [00:20:20][31.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:20:20] Yeah, it's ambiguity is the problem. Ambiguity creates emotional distress. That's just the truth. Time and time again, got to have clarity. And in this case, I have never seen it work. While I was in one organization before, The Harbinger Group, where that policy was introduced for the tail end of my tenure. And it was ridiculous. It just. Yeah. So, okay, so shall we move on to another outdated solution. [00:20:43][22.4]
Rob Johnson: [00:20:43] Make sure. [00:20:43][0.1]
Eileen Rochford: [00:20:44] We want to get rid of, though we have no authority to do so, but we are encouraging our listeners to think about. That's right. Can we please just acknowledge that email is archaic? Okay. And the overuse of it is silly. Even within organizations. If you if you've introduced any kind of Microsoft Suite or Google workspace structure, there is no reason to use email to that degree. Right? So I, I encourage everyone who hasn't entertained it to just really sit back and think about it for a bit. If you had instead a project workflow environment which exists in both places to a degree rule workspace and within the Microsoft Suite, but you can always API something in or add another tool like Asana, you're able to see where is a project happening and have conversations in these lovely little spaces, places about the project and you never lose sight of it because it's all in one place. Unlike email, where you're constantly hunting for things or even chats like in Slack elsewhere, it's just it becomes this unmanageable sea of garbage. So let's all learned our lesson and stop doing that so that we can be way more productive and take more time off. That's my suggestion. [00:22:02][78.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:22:03] Right. And and we won't be tracking everybody is. [00:22:06][2.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:22:07] Exactly. [00:22:07][0.0]
Rob Johnson: [00:22:07] As we do it. I think it's I think it's a great point, Eileen, because there are so many clunky features for just kind of, you know, the workflow as you're talking about. Yeah. And the ones that I like and I'm an I'm not I'm an unpaid endorser of I just think Google so easy and I love the real time collaboration and I love being able to just take a look at, you know, the project and be able to just see where it is. It's very simple and it's like, you know who updated it last? What's it? I just think it's I just think when you're working on a project and all projects are time sensitive, right? That it just helps increase efficiency rather than get emails. my gosh. Emails. Are they not only are they archaic, they're just so unproductive. Yeah. And then you're like, Where's the thing you sent me on that? What was that? The 18th of the 19th. You sent that? I can't read it. Just. You just spend all this time thinking about other things other than the task at hand, which is right in front of you. [00:23:04][56.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:04] Totally. Same thing with email for scheduling meetings. Let's all just get rid of that and everybody use some kind of calendar into all year the like because it's just silly, the back and forth. It is silly, silly, silly. [00:23:16][11.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:23:17] I fully subscribe to to all of our ideas, all of our ideas. [00:23:22][5.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:22] I mean, for sure it's just the more that the use of AI in the workplace becomes kind of the norm and is applied in all of these different ways, the more that if you're still clinging to email kind of let's be real, the dumber you're going to look. It's just the truth. So it's productivity, the lack thereof all of the time, sucking elements and brain numbing elements of it. But really even your perception as a professional. So moving away from that as a primary means of communication is honestly probably the number one thing that I'd like to see in the abolishment of Heavy. [00:23:58][35.6]
Rob Johnson: [00:23:59] I love being able to talk about all this stuff because we have no authority to do away with any of this stuff. But we can sit here and say, You know what? That's not great. That's not great. We'd like to see that. And in typical Robin Eileen Can You Hear Me? podcast Spirit, we're offering solutions to a lot of these things too. We are not just here's what doesn't work, it's here's what doesn't work and here's what works better. And for our the last point we were just making, that's exactly what we're doing. [00:24:23][24.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:24:23] Yeah. And anyone in any organization who listens to us and wants to learn more about a project management tool and again, this is hilarious because Rob and I have no sponsors and Asana is absolutely not one of them. But I can never stop talking about how beneficial the interaction of Asana and to organization has been. And it's been probably six years since we did it. The best decision we ever made as a company in addition to Google Workspace. Yeah. So anybody who's curious and wants to learn how they can do it or why I always sit me up, totally willing to talk about. [00:24:55][32.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:24:56] It and that was the last thing about Asana is because we do collaboration on this and other things and I'm invited into various projects on your asana. And so for somebody who is a third party, who's not part of the The Harbinger Group, you know, full time workforce, it's it's pretty, pretty simple and pretty easy to get the hang of. And the things I don't get the hang of, I'll just. Talk to one of the folks and be like, all right, I don't get this. Help me with this. So it is intuitive and it's simple. And for those, you know, third parties like that, it's it's also it's helpful for the people that work for you. And it's also helpful for the people that work with you, right. [00:25:30][33.9]
Eileen Rochford: [00:25:30] If collaboration is at the core of what you do as a as an entity using a tool like Asana, it just eliminates all of the hurdles and roadblocks and brings everyone into one environment to do great things together. So that's what that's why I love it. We use it with our clients. It's just amazing. You can show at any given moment the progress of any project to a client and timeline form calendar or any of that multiple different ways. It's just it's so useful and so productive. And after you do it a year later, you're going to say, my God, can I now just delete my email account? That would be so awesome. Yeah. [00:26:08][37.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:26:09] That's how you know how to get a hold of. I mean, guys, do you have an offline chat here? Yeah. [00:26:14][4.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:26:14] Yeah, they really. They're a phenomenal tool. Great product, great customer service. Okay, so I want to just throw in a bonus round just for fun because I want your opinion. Yes. Okay. Annual performance reviews and dress codes Go. [00:26:26][12.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:26:28] I think performance reviews are important. I think the way they're done. Having had them before, it takes up so much time. I wish there and I don't want to sit here and bag on it and then not come up with a great solution. I wish there were a better way, a more efficient way for the evaluators to evaluate and maybe to get, you know, real feedback from the people that are being evaluated and dress codes. This comes up with one of my big clients about what's appropriate. You know, our our clients in the office that day. Are you meeting with them? Are you not meeting with them? So dress codes. I don't like the idea of a dress code. And when I do presentation training to just about anybody, I always say, what's who's your audience that day? What's appropriate? Is it is it the you know, if it's a like a blazer and a blouse in a in a in a nice, you know, skirt or something? I mean, is that is that appropriate? Is it more dressed down for, you know, for for the women The men would be maybe, you know, suit with open collar. Maybe it's the uniform, you know, like the the the the vest with the Oxford shirt for like I don't know. And then you're on a Zoom meeting. Is that so? It depends on I'll just say it depends on the audience. I don't like the idea of a dress code. I just think you need to set specific expectations for the moment, whatever the moment is. Does that make. [00:27:45][77.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:27:45] Sense? Yeah, it does. And I agree with you. That's totally right on. I mean, you never want to look like you're not respectful or taking the situation seriously. I will just say that there's believe it or not, I still encounter some very strange situations of like, oddly, almost pure puritanical in nature dress codes in some organizations and I mean as recently as like in the last year. So what they. [00:28:10][24.9]
Rob Johnson: [00:28:10] What would they be without getting too specific because that's a whole other rabbit hole. [00:28:13][3.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:28:14] You know, length of skirt. [00:28:14][0.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:28:15] Gosh. [00:28:15][0.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:28:16] Give me a break. It could not it could not be more sexist. So dress code is really strict. They just struck a nerve with me in many ways. [00:28:24][7.9]
Rob Johnson: [00:28:24] Yeah, I don't I don't I don't like them for all the reasons that I was sharing with you and for that as well. And the double standard that it creates for certain people too, you know? She has to look different than he does. [00:28:35][10.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:28:35] That's not. Yeah, yeah, I agree. So, yeah, Yeah. I mean, let's you know, the more the more we behave like adults, the less we have to have codes for anything, frankly. So, yeah, some to think about. On the annual performance review, I want to say you said you didn't have a solution. I have a suggestion which we did abolish them. I think they're silly. I found them like laborious and no one found them beneficial. We switched a couple years ago to 90 day outcomes charters, so it's planning by flights of 90 days, four quadrants. Imagine a piece of paper with an X line down the middle line horizontally and vertically. So you've got four quadrants. One of those quadrants is always professional development. The other three are related to role responsibilities, and they're always tied to the goals and objectives of whatever that initiative has outlined, whether it's for the client, whether it's for marketing, for the agency, but one of them. So 25% of the 90 day outcomes charter is always dedicated to professional development. So there's at least one thing in that quadrant that's happening continuously every quarter. Yeah. And I'll just reinforce that, that the other three quadrants again, they can be if you're in client service or if you're in a department of an organization, well-run teams have very clearly defined goals and objectives. So what is your role in that organization or that team or running that account for client and in that role, how are you going to contribute directly to the achievement of a goal? So you break it down into maybe two things within each quadrant or the. Each of the remaining three quadrants that are not professional development. Again, you can try Google it. We I've cobbled it together from having read multiple things. Yeah. And the outcomes charter and our version of it was inspired by a few different and I don't know, I'll link to the articles, but really the crux of it is when you do the 90 day flights, you don't lose sight of it. You don't put it off, put it off, put it off. Because at the end of those 90 days, everyone gives a presentation. There's accountability whole team about what did I accomplish. And once a month at our like monthly big meeting. Yeah, we report on it too. Here's how far I'm into achieving my outcomes or the third quarter. But at the end of it, like, here's how I did. Here's what I learned. Here's what I'm going to do differently in the next flight. Well, it's. [00:31:08][152.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:31:08] Also it's also. Yes. So so you're giving them 90 days so it's more frequent. It's also more specific to what your expectations are and a whole bunch of different ways to measure how you're doing. And, you know, like the yearly performance review, just feel it. And I always just felt so clunky and like, back in November, this or that. And it's like, you know, you wait once a year to do that as opposed to doing it more frequently as you're talking about, but also giving real specifics not only about how they're doing, but about, you know, what expectations are and how they're meeting goals that they set themselves. Right? So they're setting the goals. And then it's like, are you achieving them? And if you're not, how can I help you achieve them? I mean, it's just more hands on and it's more I think it's more employee friendly. [00:31:50][41.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:31:51] Yeah. And I can say, like, we did it originally as kind of a pilot, like, hey, let's see how this works. And, you know, do people like it? Is it is it actually effective? And after the first quarter, people were like, this is awesome. I know exactly what's expected of me and I know where I'm supposed to be contributing and I'm able to hold myself accountable. And it's not this, you know, and I'll use that word again. Ambiguous ish, right. Vision of what? I'm supposed to be in this role at my company. [00:32:20][29.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:32:21] And let's be honest about performance reviews. They're they're rarely like a love fest. My gosh. Here's your yearly performance review. You're the best. You're unbelievable. Keep doing what you're doing. There's always the part where you're being maybe, I don't know, say, torn down a little bit, but, you know, critical eye like this didn't happen or that didn't happen. You got to improve on this. You got to improve on that. And it just doesn't have a great feel to it. I like I like your idea. I do. [00:32:44][23.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:32:44] Yeah. It works really well. So again, we have a template for that little outcomes charter that I'm happy to connect in the show, note. [00:32:52][8.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:32:53] Show notes, and we could continue talking about all these things. There's there's many more to get into, but for the sake of time, knowing that you all are very busy and we appreciate you listening, we're we're going to have to stop it right there. But I really do appreciate the fact that we were able to to share some of these ideas. So that is going to do it for another edition of Can you Hear me? I'm Rob Johnson. If you'd like to weigh in on the podcast or give us an idea for a topic because we do accept those, please contact us at our Can You Hear Me podcast page on LinkedIn. [00:33:21][28.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:33:22] And I'm Eileen Rochford. Thanks everybody for listening. If you like this show, please consider giving us a review on any of the platforms where you find Can you hear me? So Apple and Spotify in particular would be great because your reviews help other potential listeners find our show. Thanks so much. [00:33:22][0.0]
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