The way we work has changed dramatically since the pandemic forced us to work from our homes. Even though big companies are hoping to get employees back in the office on a regular basis, it is now a way of life for many of us. But how do you achieve work/life balance when you work from the same place that you live? Join “Can You Hear Me?” podcast co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford as they discuss “The Future of Work/Life Integration.
Eileen Rochford: [00:00:17] Hello everyone, and welcome to Can You Hear Me? I'm Eileen Rochford, the CEO of the harbinger Group, which is a marketing and strategy firm. [00:00:24][6.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:00:24] And I am Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications. Since the way we work remotely, far more than we used to, has changed dramatically during the pandemic. We've been fascinated by what it has meant to the ever evolving workplace. So being able to work from home has presented opportunities for employees, but in many cases, headaches for employers. One of the key trends we're seeing is the emphasis on flexibility. Everybody loves it. Now, companies are starting to realize that a one size fits all approach doesn't work anymore. Flexibility in work hours, location, even job role has become crucial. This flexibility allows people to work when they're most productive, whether it's early in the morning or late at night. And it also enables parents to spend more time with their kids and caregivers to attend to their loved ones. But with this flexibility comes the challenge of setting boundaries. When your office is in your living room, it can be hard to switch off. I know we've talked about this a lot, Eileen, but I think it's just such a crucial point because we're so many years past the pandemic now and this thing has really taken root. [00:01:26][62.1]
Eileen Rochford: [00:01:27] It has taken root for Good. It's not going anywhere, no matter, you know, all the return to office mandates of whatever shape, size and form that are being issued, the, I don't know, mask is off. People can now see work can be done and we can be even more productive, and our lives can just be better, feel better, be more full and all kinds of things this is easily one of my very favorite topics. [00:01:49][22.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:01:50] What do you what do you love so much about it? Aside from the fact that you've been, as people know, who may listen to the show, the harbinger Group has been fully remote for years, well before the pandemic. But what is it about this topic that you gravitate toward so much? [00:02:04][13.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:02:05] So I think because so we've been remote for 21 years, pretty much since, you know, the very beginning, the existence of our organization and even before that, several years before that, I would say 4 or 5, I had started to think along these lines of why just work have to be done here in this structure, whatever the structure was, you know, that I was occupying at the time with colleagues. And why do I waste so much time in Chicago traffic, getting to work in the morning and getting back at night? And I was struggling to be healthy. I was struggling to work in exercise and even just cook so I could bring, you know, healthy with healthy food, rather with me to my job. And the struggle just seemed to all be centered around how hard it was to live when there was this massive commute and all kinds of work travel thrown into my life like I traveled a lot during, those ten years that I was working, you know, in, larger agencies. So I'm fascinated by it because it was a it was a gleam of an idea more than 21, I would say, probably 25 plus years ago of mine. And we took a flier 21 years ago, created a company completely centered around remote work and bringing, the best talent to projects, in marketing. And it is it has endured the test of time, and now the world has caught up to us. And I'm seeing how everyone else has had, as I said, you know, the mask taken off and now, is there experiencing all those benefits of what it's like to work in a place, which is, you know, also your home perhaps, or wherever you choose, you know, to be remote, whether that's we have a team member who frequently works in Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, you name it, he's all over the place. And we love it because, you know, he takes us on a little camera tour and shows us where he is. And sometimes we see flowers and monkeys and things we never would see here. And it's super fun. But I'm fascinated just because, you know, literally it was a gleam of an idea. And now we live it have been living it for such a long time. But the the benefits and the enjoyment and the beauty of owning, being the, you know, person responsible for how you spend your morning time, how you spend your evening time, where you spend your lunch, what you can do, you know, in the nooks and crannies that kind of makes your life a little easier when you're working remotely. All those things have been transformational, and they continue to be. So I'm really enjoying seeing how beneficial that change has been, to, to so many of our clients, so many of their colleagues. It's I think it's a beautiful thing. And frankly, I believe that it should be here to stay. And I don't see any reason why it won't be. [00:04:37][152.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:04:38] And I want to ask you, though, too, as it relates to getting the work done other than time sensitive meetings. Hey, we got to meet at one. We got to meet at three or whatever the case is. I would assume you don't care. Like if they get the work done, the people that work for you to the best of their ability, and you have a very dynamic group of people that work for you. I would assume you don't care if they did it at 8 a.m. or 8 p.m., do you? [00:04:56][18.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:04:57] Actually, I will challenge that one a tiny bit and I think a lot of executives, CEOs, leaders in organizations would probably agree with me. Unless you're like multinational or global entity and you're juggling all kinds of different time zones and so, you know, your work flights and your project workflow in some respects could even be 24/7, right? Right. Unless you live that reality, it actually matters that everyone is working most of the time during the same business hours and can agree this is our window because think about it. You know, if somebody is only you know, oh, I'm a night owl, I'm going to work from, you know, 4 p.m. to 10 p.m. then you can't really communicate with them. Yeah, exactly. There's no collaboration. There's no ability to plan things stop and start. And you have there's all these long pauses in between getting answers. So in my opinion, we do have some team members who love to break up their day and do a portion of their work later in the evening, because maybe they need to to take care of kids now after 3 p.m., right, or 3 to 6, seven, whatever. And maybe they jump back on so they stop working, maybe at three. But the will, you know, wrap up for a couple of hours in the evening, you know, because they still need to get the work in within the deadline time frame. But they're breaking it up just to make it possible to manage other responsibilities in their lives. Now that's fine. But to the vast majority, of companies like ours and projects that we manage for our clients, having those agreed upon work hours in which we are all accessible. Yeah, helps us stay on task, on target and meet deadlines. So. [00:06:32][95.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:06:33] I personally like on a list maker, so I like I like getting up some days earlier than other days, but like, you know, crossing them off the list, getting it done task after task after task. I don't really want anything around any, personally, I don't really want anything on my list at 7 p.m. or 8 p.m. I mean, if it is, I'll I'll take care of it. But but to your point, I think when the rest of the world is active and working and that makes that makes perfect sense. [00:06:57][24.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:06:57] Well you closed your opener I think with, you know, when your office is in your living room, it can be hard to switch off, right? Yeah. Yes it can, it absolutely can. But there are ways to manage that. So let's move on to talk about a lot of the, maybe the various technologies and things that exist to support our work life management, if you will. That's how I like to think about it. People used to say balance. Some say integration, right. Who wants to integrate work into their life? And I'm joking, but the idea of managing your work and managing your life has, well, not the idea, but the ability to do so has made massive advancements just in the last five years, largely due to things like, zoom. If you haven't heard of that place, you've been living under a rock, let's be real. Slack is another great example for chat messaging. We're a Google company, so Google Chat is what we use now. We did use slack forever. But we have now transitioned away from slack and we're now all Google Suite products, everything Google. And that includes their, chat mechanism or aspect feature, I guess. And then workflow, things like monday.com or asana, take your pick. There's a bunch. But the introduction of all of that and how they all came about just at the right time thing of beauty, right? Right. When everyone was going to need, they all seemed to kind of come onto the stage and have been tested and vetted and, you know, accepted. And then they were launched into fame, frankly, during the pandemic period. [00:08:25][87.9]
Rob Johnson: [00:08:25] Absolutely. [00:08:25][0.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:08:26] The nice thing about them is they help you keep it moving. They help you keep it. I wouldn't say compartmentalized, but organized, let's say. Right. They all these things help you do that in your work life. They can also be a little bit of a double edged sword. So if you have all the apps on your phone and you're carrying your phone with you everywhere 24 over seven and you're constantly getting email notifications, Google chat notifications, throw in social media in there and like, you're you're a hot mess. Like, how are you ever going to keep, you know, your attention on anything, particularly after hours. So again, we're talking about this work life management, thing. Right. So it's the setting of boundaries. You talked about how, you know, if it's in your living room. Great. Well, how do you shut off your office when it's in your house while you shut off the apps? That's what you do. Yeah, and you'd be harsh about it to yourself, your partner, your spouse, anybody else? Maybe your roommates, too, if they're, you know, if you're really good friends with them and you want to care for their well-being, maybe ask them, hey, let's all do this because it's good for us. But it is. It's about shutting those things off, and making sure that you aren't getting the notifications because there's no better way to get yourself, you know, straight, fast paths to burnout than to not set boundaries. Another aspect of that outside of the technology is, work work hours. So even if you work for yourself and it's such a beautiful, freeing thing to be, whether you're a contractor or, you know, solopreneur, you cannot adopt the mentality of, I will take all the work I can get and I will always be available because you can't sustain that. And I don't I don't know, people still seem to think, particularly in America, that that's necessary. And I see it mostly in people like over 40, maybe even like 45 plus. And that's a really old habit and it's not getting us anywhere. So I have to remind my own spouse. About this all the time. You know you own your life. You can say when you start working. You can say when you stop working, you can say, I'm not working and take time off. But the key is to plan and to communicate and to stick to it so that your mind, you know, adapts to that schedule and you feel really good about it, like, oh, is this is it my time? I don't owe this to anybody. It's cool. So, making sure that you communicate, this is my schedule. This is what works for me. If you need an adaptation, please let me know. You know, maybe I can work on rounded on occasionally, you know, as an exception. And you can do that really actively by, doing things like blocking off your calendar, sending messages that are there, instant responses when people try to send you meetings certain times that you've preserved for yourself or for particular, like do you think work time, set it up so it says, no, I've declined the meeting because this time is reserved for something else and be able to manage your life. [00:11:10][163.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:11:10] You're trying to get hold of Eileen Rochford after business hours and it says notifications have been silenced. I'm like, I'm gonna send it anyway, but you may not get back her till tomorrow. That's fine. To your point, that's. No, I mean, that's what you're doing. You should. You have every right to do that. But you're but you're the things you're saying here are the things that you are, employing on a regular basis. And that really is important. I have two things to say. First, about Google. You're the one that got me on Google, right when I was first starting off. And I was like, I don't know if there's any good I love. It is so easy to communicate, to collaborate, to edit everything. Everything else I don't, I don't I don't want to name all the other ones, but I think we know what they are. This one is so much superior in my estimation. And I think, and you know, you and I work on this project together. We work on various other projects together. So we're communicating, you know, on the Google, you know, the Google Suite, you know, a fair amount. True? [00:12:02][52.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:12:03] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We do this entire show via various google Workspace Google products, yeah. [00:12:08][5.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:12:09] So to your point, I really think that's that is important. And I do have one thing on the flip side, okay. Because I will say, all right, it's 7:00 or whatever it is, I'm done. Like I'm like, I'm done. I walk out of my, my, you know, home office and we'll get to that in a second. You know, having my own separate areas and I'll be done. And I may check 1 or 2 little things just to make sure nothing came up later. But I don't spend. I wouldn't say it's any significant amount of time, but the reason I do that is because now that I have this career and I have flexibility, I'm so grateful for the fact that if I wanted to go on vacation with my family like we did recently, and I'm like, I'm gonna work 3 or 4 hours today and I don't have to take a vacation day. I didn't have to, you know, I didn't have seniority, I didn't is that somebody else is off. You can't get off. Whatever. Because I can. Because I can do that. It has value to me. Because. And the way I sell to my family is I'm like, in this awesome. Like, I'm working, but here we are on vacation. Like, it's so, so that's kind of a for somebody that hasn't been doing it as long. It's not like, oh, I'm going to work 24 hours a day. That's not true. Yeah, but having flexibility to be able to be on like a vacation with your family and for them to understand, well, thank God he's here because it used to be if we wanted to go on vacation and he couldn't, he'd be like, sorry, I can't go. You guys go, yeah. So that's just a little, a little, addendum to what you were talking about. And so we were just referencing the workspace, and I would say this if possible, even if you don't have a separate room, try to set up a specific area where you work. That physical separation can mentally distinguish between the work and the home life. I'm very fortunate. In my house, we took one of the guest bedrooms and it's my office and I can, if I'm working from home, I can walk down the hallway like I did today. I can close the door like, all right, I got meetings all afternoon, and then Eileen and I are taping the podcast, and and I am here. I'm in the moment in this office and it's fantastic. I realize not everybody has that, but really trying to to to find a place where you can separate, where people know, hey, I'm at work. Even if you might be within, you know, earshot. [00:14:08][119.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:14:10] Sure. It's it's very helpful. And even if, this really doesn't apply to people with little kids. So disregard and please forgive. But I think if you're single and or even, you know, you have roommates, you're going to work from, your apartment, apartments, wherever your, you know, home space is having some kind of screen that screens off. This is the space that I only open up and walk into during those hours that I've said I'm going to be working. The psychological benefits of having that physical barrier, they've been proven. So even if it's curtains or some kind of screen or something that you're able to do, that kind of cordons it off, if you will, visually. And the act of crossing the threshold of this is the space where I work, I am out of that space now my head is gone. And do something to transition away from that. We I used to make this a habit. I don't feel the need to do this as much now, but I did a lot, especially when I was parenting younger people. It was. I would take a walk, so work would be done. I wasn't jumping into making dinner. I would go outside in. Even if it was cold. You know, throw in my coat, my boots and just ten minutes just to be like, okay, I'm like decompressing. Transitioning the reign away from work, Eileen into, okay, now I'm mom Eileen and I'm 100% in, you know, with the people I'm about to go parent. It was like, it's a cleansing, you know? So that's another thing that is really helpful beyond the physical. It's really just letting your brain switch gears. Because when you work in, live in parents and be in the same space the vast majority of your life, you have to leave that other persona in some way. So create some kind of ritual that's yours that makes sense, feels right to kind of help you flip the switch. You, the other person. [00:15:56][106.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:15:57] You talked about working, walking outside and what I would tell you, sometimes I'd be in the middle, you know, back to back meetings or whatever the case is. And I might have 30 minutes between meetings, and if I'm dragging, I might meditate a quick chance. Just meditate, just clear my head. I kind of come back and I'm like, calm, I'm focused. I didn't have to take an hour and a half nap. I meditate for like 20 minutes. That that to me helps. And that's one of those recharge moments I think you're talking about here. [00:16:23][26.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:16:23] Yeah, definitely. That's so helpful. Love meditating. [00:16:26][2.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:16:26] Absolutely unbelievable. [00:16:27][0.9]
Eileen Rochford: [00:16:28] We we've talked about that a lot in past shows, haven't we. [00:16:30][2.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:16:30] Yes, yes. We used all fully, into it. And you can be sure that another thing we want to talk about kind of related to this is self-care. It's a buzzword, but it really is more important now than ever. So how can we prioritize self-care while managing work home responsibilities, being a parent. So self-care is really about recognizing your needs and taking steps to meet them. So you were talking about taking a walk, but I know you're a big runner, so it could be exercise mental health practices like let's talk about meditation, therapy, hobbies that bring you joy. There's lots of little things that you can do in the day that are going to help you. So the key is to make self-care a non-negotiable part of your routine. In other words, like you built in time to eat, you built in time to take a shower, you built in time. You know you need to build in time for the self-care. And and I see, Facebook posts from you when you're running along the lake and you know all and I know that brings you great joy. And for me, it might be, it might. I work out all the time, but but I always make time to work out. And then on the occasions that I can actually have fun because working out to me, the, the, elliptical or the spin bike aren't exactly, you know, oh, my gosh, I'm having the best time, like to be able to go golf, you know, to be outside and, it just, it just, you know, rejuvenates me. So what this also might mean, though, is saying no to certain tasks or delegating responsibilities. So it's important to recognize that you cannot do everything. And that is okay. So prioritizing self-care not only benefits you, it improves your performance at work and your relationships at home. And you said it earlier, digital detox people, you know, they're sitting there like, oh, my phone. I have 50 different apps. I'm looking at all sorts of ways that you can engage me, and if you allow people to engage you, they will. So a little detox goes a long way. And you talked about it already. But it's really important to kind of, you know, talk about a little bit again. [00:18:25][114.9]
Eileen Rochford: [00:18:26] Oh for sure. I could go on about that forever, but trying to target. Well, I turn it off every day. I literally do that do not disturb, you know, focus things that you can do on iPhones now. And I've done that for a while. I turn it, turn it off. It's gone. The only people who can ring through to me are my adult children, my spouse, my sister, you know, a couple others. That's it, you know. So, and I tell them, I'll call twice because you will ring through. But if anybody else, they don't get to do that. Right. Because I've decided if someone literally, urgently needs me. I have clients who are super important. Do know, you know, another mechanism that they're able to get me through. [00:19:05][39.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:19:06] But you're right. Yeah. [00:19:08][2.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:19:08] Yeah. I'm not divulging just because you never know who's listening to this. I didn't feel like, oh, wait a second. Now I know how to get her. [00:19:14][5.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:19:15] Like, know how to get a carrier pigeon? It's one of the two. I know it, so it's one. The two. You don't have to say which one. Just stop. [00:19:21][5.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:19:21] Okay. Yeah. So. But they know how. But they. I think in 21 years and we've had some of our clients 15 plus years, I can think of two times that clients use that because things truly are urgent. We make them urgent or we pretend they're urgent because we're addicted to that feeling of being needed and all the other things that, you know, screens and social media do to our brains. So, don't just take control and say what you need, what you want, put it in place, make it happen. That includes saying no and saying no. Without saying no can include setting up these boundaries digitally, which is just a super smart thing to do. So if for any reason anyone who's listening to this thinks that they don't have permission to do that, I'm giving you permission to do that. [00:20:06][45.0]
Rob Johnson: [00:20:07] You heard it here first. [00:20:08][0.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:20:09] It's totally okay. So, none of no one was engineered to be accessible or be on. Or be working now 20 hours a day. Oh, say no to that. That's what. That's my position. And I hope everybody else think about embracing it a little bit. Especially on the weekends. Put down the phone. Turn it off. Yeah. Yeah. So let's discuss finding harmony between our professional and our personal pursuits. How in today's world, with this, you know, 24/7 accessibility, can we strike a balance that feels right and works for each of us individually? Well, I personally think that it's about understanding that work life integration, work life management is not a 50/50 split. Frankly, it should be more like 70/30, 60/40. That's just how I've always thought about it, and approached it. So you've got to find that rhythm that allows you and however you work and whatever your personality is like, to thrive. So that means being fully present at your job when you're during doing job things, during those hours that, you know, are established, either that you've done for yourself as a solopreneur, etc., or that your job has established as the hours that you know you're going to be accessible, working remotely. And then just finding those rituals that help you switch gears, like I talked about before, so that you can focus on your family or whatever hobby that, you know, like Rob said, brings you joy. You want to you want to make room, make time for joy to enter your life. I almost think that right now, and it's almost become the way of life that we have to do that. You have to say I'm bringing joy or welcoming joy in this, you know, little way every day into my life so that I can know what that feels like, because there's there's a lot of heavy shit, you know, there just is. So if you're not kind of looking for the joy and bringing it in, then you're going to get locked in mentally into that down, depressed. And I don't say that casually. Right. And what do I mean, clinically? I just mean that feeling of having the weight of the world on your shoulders. [00:22:00][110.6]
Rob Johnson: [00:22:00] And the other thing to to remember is this is a process. The advice you're giving right now is excellent advice, but you have to understand that it may work for you today, but it might not work the next day. And you need to be open to changing circumstances, you know, changing your approach as the circumstances change a little bit. So just understand how I'm going to do it this way. And then you may find over time that's not working as well. You have to be adaptable. You have to be willing to make some changes. [00:22:24][24.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:22:26] Totally. I know somebody who I could never do this, and I truly don't know how they do because I can't work off of a laptop. I need my giant screen and a couple screens and other things and remote or, external keyboard and such for me to feel comfortable when I'm working. But they pick up their laptop and they go to different spaces all around their house or yard throughout the day just to kind of break it up, and make them feel like, oh, now I'm in nature and I'm feeling happier and and that makes me feel better. And that's awesome. I just jump, I have a treadmill, walking treadmill, standing desk. I jump on that, you know, try to be on that, you know, 90% of the day versus sitting down on my butt, which is terrible for all of us. [00:23:03][37.0]
Rob Johnson: [00:23:06] It's terrible for all of us, yeah [00:23:06][0.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:06] So remembering, to be flexible and, gosh, don't beat yourself up. Like, sometimes if I've been sitting for two hours, I'm like, what are you doing? Get up. [00:23:14][7.4]
Rob Johnson: [00:23:14] Well, the worst part is I just in. Before we started taping, I was like three straight hours sitting like one meeting to the next, to the next to the next. And then I got up and it wasn't like, why? Why didn't you get up? It was like, oh, ouch. I haven't been up in awhile. [00:23:27][13.1]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:29] That's the same desk, you go get that standing desk. [00:23:32][3.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:23:33] I've seen a lot of people have them and they are they are fantastic. [00:23:35][2.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:36] It's great. Yeah. We just had a couple more people on our team, and I make the switch, and I think they're liking it, I hope so. So I think we've covered all the high points. I, you know, a lot of this has been said. You can find the information in a million places, but I'm glad that we consolidated it here and just kind of reminded folks this way of working, this way of living, it's here. This is real. We're probably the vast majority of us and those we know we're going to be doing this for a long time. Don't get in a rut. Don't get yourself in unhealthy habits. Prioritize your own health first, and I hope we've covered a number of ways in which you can do that successfully. [00:24:07][30.9]
Rob Johnson: [00:24:08] And remember to, this work life integration, management, whatever you want to call it, it's a journey. It's not a destination. So like I said a minute ago, if things are working for you now than they aren't working in the future. Keep experimenting with what works best for you, and do not hesitate to make the changes if you need to make them along the way. [00:24:24][16.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:24:24] That's right. Absolutely. And I guess that's going to do it for this edition of the Can You Hear Me podcast. I'm Eileen Rochford and I invite you guys, and I know Rob does to to weigh in on this podcast, give us ideas, for future topics, contact us and our LinkedIn can you hear me page? We are so excited to hear from our listeners all the time and love it when you guys share our shows on your own feeds and tell your people in your own network about us and all of those good things. So thanks for being our awesome listeners. [00:24:55][30.4]
Rob Johnson: [00:24:55] And the podcast page on LinkedIn has been a great resource and it's turning into a it's slowly developing into a really nice community and it will continue to do so. My name is Rob Johnson. We thank you for listening. Now, if you like this show, please consider giving us a review on any of the platforms where you find. Can you hear me, Apple, Spotify and many more. Your reviews help other potential listeners find our show. We'll see you again next time. [00:24:55][0.0]
[1450.4]