In modern-day management, it has never been more important to adapt one’s leadership style to mesh with the person being managed. In this episode of the Can You Hear Me? Podcast, co-hosts Eileen Rochford and Rob Johnson take a closer look at The Adaptive Leader: Meeting Employees Where They Are.
Rob Johnson: [00:00:18] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the Can You Hear Me podcast. I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications. [00:00:24][6.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:00:25] I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the Harbinger Group Marketing and Strategy firm. As regular listeners of Can You Hear Me Know, we like to take the various communication techniques that Rob and I are experienced in and show how they can also be effective as leadership tools. So with that in mind, today we are focusing on the adaptive leader, meeting employees where they are. So what does that mean? This means that for modern leaders, it's essential to adapt your leadership style to mesh with the people you're managing. Seems obvious, right? [00:00:56][31.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:00:57] Well, it does seem obvious, but it also requires, I think, a little bit of... Nuance, because if you're somebody that says, I'm the leader and they need to come to me, that's fine. But you're probably likely to get more out of someone if you figure out what their strengths are as leaders and where they're comfortable managing and meet them there. It's not that you have to go all the way to them. It's just let's meet in the middle, as opposed to you're coming all the up to the C-suite and I'm the boss or wherever. Let's meet there. And I think everybody gets more out it. [00:01:29][32.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:01:29] I think today is really going to be kind of a just let's call this an annual checkup, if you will. On our leadership styles and learn a little bit about the concepts of adaptive leadership. So hopefully everybody listen with your minds wide open and a lot of honesty with yourself like I'm going to be doing. So I like to think about this as frequently as I can, like, all right, what do I need to change? And the flexibility that is associated with adaptive leadership is what we're going to explore today together. [00:02:02][32.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:02:02] Well, what you're also talking about is self-awareness. You're in charge, you're the leader, and I know you're a lifelong learner. You always realize no matter how much I've done and how long I've done it, I can still get better. And that's really what we're trying to kind of challenge people to do here, just to think about things in different ways. So this isn't just a feel good concept, this, I think, is a leadership necessity. People are different. People have different motivations, different communication style, different personal and professional challenges. If you're treating everyone the same, you're likely missing the mark and potentially losing your team's engagement, loyalty, and performance. Harvard's Ronald Heifetz, a pioneer of adaptive leadership, describes it as the ability to lead through change by mobilizing people to tackle tough challenges and thrive. But here's the kicker. You need to understand who you're mobilizing to mobilize effectively, right Aileen? [00:02:58][55.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:02:58] Yeah, absolutely. It's that it's ridiculous. I think maybe in the 80s, it was still okay, maybe even the 90s to think, oh, I'm going to go read this leadership book. And all I have to do is apply those principles. And I'm gonna be a great leader, my team is going to fall in behind me and everything's going to be roses, unicorns and rainbows. There's no way today that If I'm. You're not paying attention to who you work with, who they are as individuals, what tends to kind of light them up and get them going positively with energy, focus, drive, that kind of stuff. If you're gonna pay attention to that, then you're totally missing out on a huge amount of opportunity. So it's that like, how do you find the ways to understand people as, or your managies, I guess? Your director reports, as individuals, as real human beings, some people think that there's no place for that at work. But because that's superfluous, you know, but that chat time is actually unproductive and not helpful. But in reality, the you know a minimal amount of time spent getting to understand the folks you work with as true truly as human beings, what's important to them? What do they do outside of work? And even at work? What do they treasure in terms of growth, accomplishment? Do they want more time off? Or do they want more compensation? Do they want... You see what I mean? There's so many different lovers, basically, that we all have inside of us that can help us feel comfortable and be better at the jobs that we do. But as leaders, if we're not taking the time to say, oh, I want to understand this person and making the time, honestly, it's not even about taking, it s making, setting it aside in a concerted way consistently. And that doesn't talking about projects. That doesn't mean talking about, you know, roles or responsibilities, job descriptions, all that kind of stuff. I think that it's essential to make the time. You know, one-on-ones may not even be the time to do it. Frankly, I got to be honest. It feels like you got to say, all right, I'm going to find time when I can either have coffee with this person virtually when I can have lunch with them where all you really talk about is them, not even you. You're just asking them questions to help get to know them better, which then you can apply when you are actually leading them as individuals. I think that's how I see it. What about you? [00:05:29][150.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:05:29] I agree with it because I feel like somebody is going to be listening to this and they're going to misinterpret what's being said. This isn't just like touchy-feely soft skill stuff. And I know some people are going to think, oh gosh, there we go again. I'm suggesting to you that this is a psychological tool that you have at your disposal. And you can be stubborn and say, my way or the highway, come meet me where I am. Or you can say... Am I going to get the most out of this person? What am I gonna do to learn more about them to understand how they tick? So when I meet them where they are, we're meeting at the right place. So I know because there are times on this podcast where we talk about managerial skills relative to this and it feels like, oh, we are talking about soft skills. We're talking about cajoling people and going light on them and this and that. And it's just not the case. It really is, are you psychologically brave and astute enough to be able to employ this to make sure you're getting the most out of your people? I like to frame it that way and not the former. [00:06:34][64.8]
Eileen Rochford: [00:06:34] Right, good. And there's a mountain of research to support the direct business benefits, quite honestly. Like the Gallups, their State of the American Manager report that found managers who adapt to employees' unique strengths and needs are likelier to have engaged teams. And teams led by highly engaged managers are nearly 60 percent more likely to be involved themselves. And engagement and involvement leads to better outcomes and all the things that you know everyone has to measure these days. So it may feel like we're starting with the soft, but we're ending with direct business benefits. And Who doesn't want that? [00:07:11][36.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:07:11] Everybody should want that. I mean, it seems so simple when when the words are coming out of our mouths here Eileen But it really does require the ability to step back just a little bit and to look at the 30,000 foot view Which as a leader you should be doing anyway, right? [00:07:26][14.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:07:26] Yeah, for sure. [00:07:27][0.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:07:27] And that doesn't just include the tasks at hand. It involves the people who are executing the tasks that I think. [00:07:35][8.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:07:36] Yeah, and I think the hardest thing about applying adaptive leadership honestly is what you said earlier, which is the self-awareness, you know, like recognizing that while you as a leader may be driven by achievements, and you would love it if everyone you worked with was wired the exact same way, because then it would just be really easy for you, [00:07:56][20.4]
Rob Johnson: [00:07:57] Too easy, yeah. [00:07:58][0.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:07:58] But that's not how the world works. It would be so nice. And I think that was what used to drive the whole top-down structure philosophy at work. People were just like, I don't wanna deal with that. I just want it to be easier. We're gonna do it my way because I'm successful. Everyone should be like me. Well, that's, I dunno. Today we know that that's the case. So even when things get super chaotic and I do feel like the world is really full of friction and chaos and a lot of things that are kind of making us all feel like work days are longer and harder and. Gosh, I don't even have time to get through my own task list, let alone make time to sit down and get to know someone on a personal level when all I want to do is finish my work day. That's that you can feel that way pretty easily right now, you know, but the self awareness that I'm talking about, you have to force yourself to be self aware and realize if you're going down that path too much too often, you got to pull back and make the time again, even if it feels like you don't have it, it will result in your team. Being better equipped and set up to help you have to do less if you think about it. So in the long run, it really does have direct benefits to you. If you're the type of person who has to be able to see the direct benefit, you know, to yourself, that's one way to frame it. [00:09:11][73.6]
Rob Johnson: [00:09:12] Well, if you think about it as, oh gosh, I don't have the energy to do it right now, to do this, this minor gesture, and then you think about the world as you just described it, which people are feeling overwhelmed. What you might consider is, if I make this small investment here, perhaps down the road, when I really am overwhelmed. Somebody's going to pick up the slack because I connected with them in a meaningful way, and it didn't cost anything, and it all things considered was fairly minor, but it's going to pay off huge dividends. And maybe that person, because they're energized, because they're part of those 60%, they're going to be more likely to be involved themselves. Maybe they're gonna help you in a very meaningful way in some other case down the road and where they are taking something off your plate, where they are making a major contribution that is helping your organization out. I would just, I would frame it that way because I know it's like I'm at the end of my day. I don't really have time for, you know, six more minutes to learn more about Eileen. Maybe if I did, you know. She's going to wow me in, I don't know, two weeks, two months, six months, I don't it's possible, but it's proven to your point. It's not just us flapping our gums here. This is like got research backing it up as we've just expressed. [00:10:22][70.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:10:23] Yeah, no doubt about it. I personally experienced something that you just described, and I'll just add to your description, which is Sometimes as leaders, you don't really appreciate that you too are going to hit the hard stuff. You're going to those roadblocks. You're gonna feel spent, overwhelmed. And at those moments, you really will need the people who surround you to help. And you may not even see it coming. So I've personally had situations where things just kind of got out of control really fast. And I truly felt like I couldn't even manage to go to work that day or for a couple of you know, and I had team members who just they just saw it and who stepped in and said, I got this, you know, and they didn't even ask me to explain it. It was like, just go. I'll figure it out when you're ready to come back, which never takes that long. Well, you know we'll be okay. But it's funny that you say that because it really is interesting as you made me think of that. And as leaders, I think maybe we don't appreciate that that's going to happen to us too. And we do need that support. So that's another reason to get to know people. You're absolutely right. [00:11:30][67.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:11:30] And who created that culture when that happened to you? [00:11:32][2.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:11:34] I don't know. I mean, I guess I'm just darn lucky because sometimes I truly do feel like I'm the leader who's like, I don't have time. I'm so pressed. I am so whatever. But I guess what it comes down to is if you kind of make the time enough, you know, you don't let too much time pass without connecting, without caring, without, you now getting to know people better, especially newer people, you'll be okay. But if you never do it, you're really going to be in trouble someday down the line. That's for real. [00:12:01][26.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:12:00] For real. Absolutely. Well, and I know you're going to get into some of that a little bit later because there's, as you know, with your workforce being all remote and that sort of thing, we're going to, I'm teasing forward a little to what we're going talk about, but there are some really, I think, great things that you've employed at the Harbinger group to kind of get the most out of people. So let's talk about before we do that, let's talk about practical application, adaptive leadership. This doesn't, so we're not saying you're gonna be inconsistent as a leader or you're to be playing favorites and somebody else is the favorite and the other person isn't. It means taking time to understand what makes Someone. Tick. Is this employee motivated by recognition? Are they motivated by autonomy? Or do they thrive on structure or need flexibility? I mean, there's all kinds. And that's why you can't treat everybody, you were talking about treating everybody the same. You can't just play favorites and then have every other person who's working hard not get any sort of recognition because some people do need the recognition. Some people do want to kind of be left alone and you know that on the back end that work is going to be good because that's the way they work. Other people you need to be checking in with regularly because they need the structure. They need to know that the boss is paying attention. And other people are like, listen, I thrive when I have flexibility, when I'm not, you know, on task, same time, same place, every day. It doesn't look the same all the time. So these are all really important points to bring up. [00:13:18][77.8]
Eileen Rochford: [00:13:19] And what I'm hearing you say, or what's popping into my head is you say that, Rob is, so how do you do it? How do you figure it out? What each person, you know, kind of what that what makes them tick? Do they want more compensation? Do They want more projects to lead independently? Because sometimes when you ask people, they don't know for real, especially when they're younger. I've personally experienced that too. [00:13:41][22.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:13:40] Well, yeah, young workers, that's a whole other conversation, because they're like a ball of clay. They don't even know who they are yet. [00:13:47][6.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:13:47] But I say especially intentionally because it's not, this is not exclusive. They're not knowing to just, you know, younger professionals. [00:13:54][7.0]
Rob Johnson: [00:13:55] Oh, sure. [00:13:55][0.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:13:55] It's shocking even, you know, I have met plenty of professionals who, you know, mid thirties, forties, who kind of come into our circle and, and I realized they really don't know what they want. They, they don't, but they, they should be helped along, you know, to figure that out. Yeah. So in those situations, um, I think I did what like, and we do, and, you know, advertising marketing, it's a little bit of AB testing, just kind of playing with, all right, this time I'm going to try recognition and see how they respond. [00:14:23][28.0]
Rob Johnson: [00:14:24] Yeah, let's try this on for size. [00:14:26][2.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:14:26] This time I'm going to try, Hey, would you, you know, you, you were great on this and you've been, you know, really going at it for a whole month to make this happen. Here's a day off. And then to see, does that, you know, Really strike the right cord and do they come back, you know, energized and [00:14:41][15.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:14:42] And if they didn't, you know, here's the thing, if they don't, and I'll let you finish that thought, if they don't you've also learned something very important. So you're sitting there thinking, what motivates them? But also, when you figure out what doesn't motivate them, you're like, well, I'll just scratch that off the list and I won't do that. So anyway- That's right. Lazy testing. [00:14:57][14.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:14:57] Yeah. So that's a good way to do it if you're kind of someone's a little harder to get to know. And I will also say, you know, right now, social situations for many, weirdly, we just got out of practice. So it's gonna take a little bit of consistent effort of, oh, let's have that lunch or let's had that coffee or let us talk about what you did this weekend so I can, you know, as like kind of a backdoor way to learn about them, like, as in how do they spend their time? And what do they seem to enjoy based on their facial expressions and body language and things as they're talking about it. They're talking Yardberg and they look miserable. Then you're like, okay, well, they didn't enjoy that, right? It's pretty obvious. [00:15:35][37.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:15:35] Let's move on. Let's Move on. [00:15:36][1.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:15:37] Yeah, yeah. Okay. I think that we gave some good thoughts there in terms of how to explore and, you know, apply the concept of A-B testing when it comes to people who don't really know motivate them. But let's delve into how this Like, you know, we have a huge portion of the workforce still who were hybrid, remote work and have that or those elements rather has changed, have changed the equation, um, in terms of leadership, because honestly, it was a lot easier being in the office and observing people's patterns and habits and where would they like to go to lunch and who did they talk about the most and the chit chat in the hallway time, that kind of stuff. It was easier to pick up on cues and get to know people. So now you have to be really like overly intentional. You know, and kind of over communicate one of your favorite things. Things like. Making one-on-one time happen, they become way more critical. So we were alluding to some of that. Like, hey, you have to say, hey do you want to have coffee for me to open up your day or with me to Open up your Day? Ask them, yeah, what'd you do last night? Or that's a good time for chit chat, even if it's 15 minutes, right? Anybody can do that. So find the ways to establish some one- on-one-time and don't be, you know, pelting them with questions, but maybe just listen. Read up on some of the better exploratory questions out there that people tend to respond to because, you know, as we've said in a few different discussions. About leadership adaptation. You're on the show, if you're considering this optional and something that you can just bypass because it's uncomfortable for you, you're losing out. And that's just not going to go well. So I can relate to this as somebody, you know, I've led a remote team for a long time, like two decades and little more than that. And we were fully remote almost the entire time. There was a very short period where So realizing, it's beautiful, remote work. It's beautiful because it creates so much more efficiency and puts time back in people's lives and lots of things. But it does put the emphasis on productivity and just getting the day done. And that erodes connection if you're not intentional, if you don't put effort into it. So I think my reminder is just look at how you structure if you are fully remote. Fine times, you know, even if you're managers aren't doing it, try and connect with the people you work with, ask your manager proactively for some, you know, have coffee once or twice a month for 15 minutes at the start of a day, virtually, and just BS, you now. So find ways it I think it can go both ways. It doesn't have to be leaders down either. I'll just note it's everybody has the ability to foster the kind of culture that they want. [00:18:18][161.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:18:18] And you were talking about earlier about just getting on with somebody and just talking about stuff, not even relative to the project or the project at hand or the task right ahead of you. And I know that you all regularly at the Harbinger Group employ something like this, where it's just about connecting. Why don't you tell people about that a little bit? [00:18:38][20.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:18:38] Yeah, and then we bake it in like in multiple ways. So I wouldn't say there isn't one time where that's just what we do. But we bake in being together with purpose and all the time. So here are the ways we do that. We start every day with a morning huddle. It's usually about 15 to 20 minutes. And it's not just a I'm going to report on what I'm doing today. It it's also okay, you know, what are the hurdles we're seeing? Who's got a roadblock? But we always open up with like five minutes of truth just chit chat. If you at the transcripts, it's funny. Like, oh, I had this hilarious thing happen to me this morning, or I totally spilled coffee down my shirt. Oh my God. You know, or I fell when I was running, I, you know, scraped me on my, I fell on the sidewalk. My whole knee is scraped and the saga, you know. It's, it sharing is what it is. And those little bits. You're going to get the job done, but you're also [00:19:26][48.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:19:24] You're going to get the job done, but you're also making that connection with each other, which is going to bolster the team, which is going to help you be more productive, presumably. [00:19:33][8.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:19:33] Yeah. And there are moments that there are opportunities really to demonstrate interest, empathy, learn something about people you work with. We always learn the funniest things unexpectedly about each other in some of those morning huddles, I find. The end of the day checkouts, they're a little more all business. I think people are just spent. But we do that every day too. So it's the coming together, the being together, the connecting concept so that you don't feel like you're just on an island. Um, is that that's what, uh, you have to be really intentional about that as a remote organization, and those are two ways that we do it. The other big way is, um, once a month we have like a full day together and we try to make that in person. Um, they're nice when they're in person, I think the times when they work really well in person is, are, are when perhaps the schedule isn't as packed and we don't have some mission critical things immediately ahead of us. So you're not going to find as many of those. There's 12 opportunities a year, there's probably only going to be about four or five where you're going to have less packed days. And that's fine because it's the whole day. So it's intentional opportunities to connect and being okay with just as you would if you were in an office. There is always the banter, as they say. [00:20:51][77.6]
Rob Johnson: [00:20:51] So those are those are really great tools. I'm glad that you shared them because I think they're very important and it is intentional on your part and it is going the extra mile. And that's what we keep talking about. And I think that we're showing people that you can do little bite sized pieces of intentionality. And as you add them all up. They become something significant, so I think that's really what we want people to realize is you don't have to go reinvent your management style or your office or your firm, but if you do a few little things and they will add up and they'll be positive, they will a value add, hopefully. [00:21:24][32.8]
Eileen Rochford: [00:21:24] They're like snacks, little snacks throughout the day. [00:21:27][2.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:21:29] You know, one of the best tools that I've seen is, in this whole discussion, is the situational leadership model that was developed by Ken Blanchard and Paul Hersey. It suggests that adapting leadership based on two variables, the person's competence and commitment. So in other words, a new hire might need high direction, while a seasoned pro may need occasional check-ins. And we touched upon that a little bit earlier, but I think it's also worth repeating and kind of putting into a little different context here. [00:21:54][25.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:21:54] Hmm, yeah, it is funny when you think about it, competence and commitment, if even if you have a younger person who like their competence isn't fully formed, it's fresh, but it's still there's there's foundational competence there, you wouldn't have hired [00:22:06][12.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:22:06] Sure, of course. [00:22:07][0.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:22:08] But if their commitment is super high, that is the lever that you can push. [00:22:12][4.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:22:12] Right. Are you an eager learner or are you, I know everything, right? Yes. That makes a difference. [00:22:18][5.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:22:18] Yes, totally. Yeah, you see that a lot. And how to kind of reward competence, if you will, but also challenge them to be curious and continue to expand in competence. That's another thing. And some people really are driven by curiosity. So giving them the opportunity of, you know, take these days or half day professional time. And all you're gonna do is take that course, learn that, go to that conference. So people really do come back from those experiences super energized. So you just gotta keep up the conversation to figure it out. That's it. That's, I think that is what we are saying. [00:23:00][42.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:23:01] I think I think you're right. [00:23:02][0.9]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:02] All right, here's here's what we're going to do. We're going to say that if you're listening, and we hope there's lots of people doing that, here is the challenge that we're gonna throw out. Pick one person of the people that you manage and ask yourself what's their communication style. Maybe ask what do they need from me to do their best at work and then just act on it. Don't even don't wait, you don't even have any formal process. [00:23:24][21.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:23:24] No, just do it. [00:23:25][0.9]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:25] Just challenge yourself to figure that out. Just pick one person, and that's progress, that's growth right there. That is a leadership snack right there, ha ha. But shift something, I think is what we're saying in how you lead them this week. Don't wait, now's the time. Because like with anything, the more you build this muscle, the stronger your team's gonna get, and the stronger, your collective outcomes will be together and that will feel great. And we'll just conclude by saying, as we mentioned before, you know, adaptive leadership isn't soft. It's, that's leading from a place of wisdom and it's today essential, can't skip it. Everybody grows, people grow, they struggle, they change, and we as leaders, we gotta grow along with them. [00:24:04][39.0]
Rob Johnson: [00:24:05] I mean, yeah, I mean the the everything keeps moving. It's not as you said, you know, it's not a static thing, you know, because there's evolution and there's growth and there are issues that you just pointed out and you need to be able to follow that that piece of the puzzle for each of the people that are working for you. And if you do that, you're going to have better outcomes. [00:24:24][19.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:24:25] Everything will click. It'll feel great. [00:24:26][1.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:24:26] Absolutely. Well, I think that's about it for us today. It's another edition of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson. If you would like to comment on the podcast or suggest a topic, please contact us at our Can You hear Me podcast page on LinkedIn. [00:24:41][14.1]
Eileen Rochford: [00:24:41] Yes, that is the best place to find us. And I'm Eileen Rochford. If you like what you heard today, please consider giving our show Can you hear me a positive review wherever you get your podcasts like Apple, Spotify, whatever, because your reviews will help other listeners find our show. Thanks for listening. [00:24:41][0.0]
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