As a company, what do you do and say, or not do and say, when an important decision is made by our nation’s top court? In the wake of the controversial Supreme Court decision that overturned Roe v Wade, how are companies responding and what is the reaction from employees on professional social platforms like LinkedIn? Is there cause for concern due to how employees behave in online discussions? In an era of corporate social responsibility, how “responsible” is it to weigh in on some of the most polarizing issues of our time? Join co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford as they discuss Roe v Wade versus Corporate Activism.
Some articles to check out!
Chicago Letter Writing Campaign: https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-chicago-letter-ceo-abortion-rights-business-pitch-20220628-4iverzblsbh35mj7ylrdmskl2q-story.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Breaking%3A%20News%20%2B%20Business&utm_content=5031656377307
Staff Travel Expenses: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61941591
Abortion Ruling Trusts Companies into Divisive Arena: https://apnews.com/article/company-stances-abortion-c70835ae2eedc71c36078ccaa81437b7
Here's How Companies are Reacting to the Supreme Court Decision on Abortion: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/27/business/heres-how-companies-are-reacting-to-the-supreme-court-decision-on-abortion.html
Legal Clashes Await U.S. Companies Covering Workers' Abortion Costs: https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/companies-offering-abortion-related-travel-expenses-legal-exposure-rcna35559
Abortion Ruling Poses New Questions About How Far Supreme Court Will Go: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/25/us/supreme-court-abortion-contraception-same-sex-marriage.html
Corporate Sociopolitical Activism and Firm Value: Bhagwat, Y., Warren, N. L., Beck, J. T., & Watson, G. F. (2020). Corporate sociopolitical activism and firm value. Journal of Marketing, 84(5), 1–21. https://doi.org/10.1177/0022242920937000
Companies Are More Vocal Than Ever on Social Issues. Not on Abortion: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/24/business/abortion-roe-wade-companies.html
Tech Companies have Gone Silent on Data Privacy Since Roe v. Wade was Overturned. When Will They Speak Up?: https://fortune.com/2022/06/27/abortion-digital-data-privacy-apple-google-facebook-roe-wade/
Rob Johnson [00:00:18] As a company, what do you do and say or not do and say when an important decision is made by our nation's top court in the wake of the controversial Supreme Court decision that overturned Roe v Wade? How are companies responding and what is the reaction from employees on professional social platforms like LinkedIn? Is there cause for concern due to how employees behave in these online discussions? In an era of corporate social responsibility, how responsible is it to weigh in on some of the most polarizing issues of our time? Join co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford as they discuss Roe v Wade versus corporate activism.
Rob Johnson [00:01:02] Hello everyone, and welcome once again to another episode of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications.
Eileen Rochford [00:01:10] And I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the marketing and strategy firm The Harbinger Group. As all of you guys know, important communications issues and the strategies to navigate them are our main focus here on Can You Hear Me? So real quick, before we get going, we just want to let you know that today's topic, Roe v Wade versus corporate activism, is not meant to be an exercise in politics. Okay. Instead, this is going to be a discussion of how some major companies and brands are responding to the Supreme Court ruling. What's the best path forward for them, whether some of their active social networking employees are conducting themselves in a manner that might be counter to stated corporate values? That kind of stuff. We're totally looking at this today strictly from the perspective of brand repercussions, brand communications. That's it. And I'll just say, well, it won't be easy to separate ourselves from our personal feelings, we're going to do our level best here.
Rob Johnson [00:02:02] Yes, we are. Because we we know that. Listen, there's all sorts of people out here listening in leadership positions, and not everybody takes the same position on an issue, and we are respectful of that. So I know the minute somebody heard Roe v Wade and podcast and Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford, they're like, "oh my gosh, they're going to go into the political part of it." There's going to be some of that in there just because it's hard to avoid. But really, as Eileen mentioned, our focus is on how these companies are reacting to it, how they're reacting to the issue itself, and how they're reacting to employees that may have their own opinions, which they are allowed to have. So there is a lot to unpack here, but to give it context, let's revert back to the 2022 Edelman Trust Barometer discussion from episode 17 in the late winter, where we told you that the most trusted source of information at 77% was my employer. Not only that, the ETB found that when considering a job, 60% of potential employees want their CEO to speak out on controversial issues they care about. And 80% of the general population want CEOs to be personally visible when discussing public policy with external stakeholders. So here it is, Eileen. Everybody says it in the trust barometer. This is what they want. And now this is what they're getting on probably one of the most controversial things that you could weigh in on. But they say, hey, we want these CEOs to speak out. We want to talk about issues that are important to us. And no matter what side of the issue you fall on that you support, we would all agree that there are strong, strong feelings.
Eileen Rochford [00:03:53] No doubt about it. I mean, the pressure to speak out has just been mounting and mounting, particularly in the last couple of years from the Edelman Trust Parameter findings alone. And you and I know from personal experience, because this is what we do for a living every day. How much company leaders have struggled with that question of to engage or not to engage politically, right. Especially in the last few recent years. But for context, there's a couple other things that I want to toss out here for consideration. Another piece of research to note, and this is pretty recent. Forrester found that while the share of Americans who feel companies have a responsibility to engage on current issues and events has risen in recent years. They also found that public opinion about companies taking a stance on abortion is quite different. It's much less. And thus many companies are being very careful about how they choose to respond- honestly, if at all. We'll talk about that in a bit.
Rob Johnson [00:04:58] This is one of the most polarizing issues, as we've already mentioned. And there's no easy answer, because people, as we already established, they want their leaders to weigh in on things. But then if they weigh in on this particular issue, it may that the rules might not be the same for some of the other issues that they might feel strongly about talking about.
Eileen Rochford [00:05:25] Sure, and there will be repercussions if they choose not to and sometimes if they choose to, right? So all that has to be weighed. Another thing we want to toss in here as we kind of make our salad for this discussion, I guess, is while we see consumer and employee expectations of businesses, you know, taking such stands and that's increasing, we see that, right? A journal of marketing study in 2020 found that corporate activism negatively impacted stock performance. Yet when activism was consistent with the value of the company's customers, not necessarily the company itself, right- in this case, we mean consumers- there was a positive impact on sales. So, again, I just want to reiterate, it's important to note that what I just cited was not focused on business to business sales. So keep that in mind.
Rob Johnson [00:06:17] Yeah.
Eileen Rochford [00:06:18] Right, so this is complicated. And consequently, many company and organizational leaders, they're treading lightly and they're just struggling with making the choice that's right for them. That's honestly what I've spent now large parts of many days in the last week helping leaders consider and find their way through. So I can tell you there's just widely varying viewpoints on how to approach this.
Rob Johnson [00:06:45] Without getting into specifics about your client, this has been weighing on you the last few days because you've been dealing with this directly, because there has been a call for "So what do you think?" Right? And you're having to figure out what is this client? Well, what do they think? We got to really peel back this proverbial onion and figure it out and figure out what you're comfortable doing and saying and what you're not comfortable doing and saying. I would imagine.
Eileen Rochford [00:07:13] Absolutely. That's 100% true. And it's an interest, just as a woman and having my own, you know, political beliefs, it's also like, okay, great. "Go be neutral, Eileen." Go and give counsel based on, you know, each individual company or organization circumstances and values and just totally separate yourself from the situation. And it's funny, as you know, communications consultants, we have to do that quite a bit, just completely separate ourselves.
Rob Johnson [00:07:39] It's true, too. And back in my former vocation, which was television, and I was always and I have been always a fence sitter because even though I might imagine people that I knew and liked watching me to sort of, you know, give me a sense of calm when I really thought about who is watching, there's no telling who they were. And so I could never assume that everybody watching watched and had the same sort of ideas that I did. And so I think that what you're doing and what we're doing here is taking that a step further, which is talking about we can't assume that everybody is on one side of this issue and clients come in different shapes and sizes, right? So you have to give the client what they want. That is probably rule number one in our business. And what if what if their values don't align with yours? That's when you have to give them the best counsel possible, even though it may not align with your personal beliefs.
Eileen Rochford [00:08:40] Yeah, that's very true. I often try to remind myself that the leaders who I am working with and my team is working alongside with me in support of, those leaders themselves struggle with the separation of their personal values, their personal beliefs, and honestly, what's best for the company, for their employees, for their customers, etc. They also have that same struggle. You'd like to think that culturally leaders, particularly at the C-suite, are ideologically and values aligned with the organizations that they serve, so that it isn't that far of a leap in terms of them being able to understand and both reflect those values and understand the feelings and be empathetic toward those of their employees and those that they serve, whether it's their customers or clients, right. They too have that problem. So I just try to remind myself of that because we're all individuals at the end of the day with widely, in many cases, varying viewpoints and beliefs. But when it comes to guiding CEOs, for example, I just tend to fall back on what I think is very sage advice. You have to return to your values and determine if the issue at hand is one that it makes sense for your organization to be talking about and really is talking about this topic or any other stepping outside of your normal kind of external presence and what you tend to look like in the marketplace. Because if all of a sudden you're just going to pop up and talk about something, of course you're going to look out of alignment and consequently, probably not very authentic because it's not how you typically behave and conduct yourself as an organization and suddenly you're popping up on something. It looks opportunistic and we know that's terrible.
Rob Johnson [00:10:42] And we've talked about this in the past, too, and you just brought up two words that were top of mind for me, and that was authentic and alignment. And if there's no authenticity and alignment with you purposefully reaching out and saying something about something this polarizing, then you're not doing yourself any sort of favors. And because we've talked about this before, we don't need to spend a ton of time on it just to remind people and leaders that you have to be authentic to what you believe in, what your company's core values are, and that what you say is aligned with those. So I thought you used two terrific words because they were on my mind and some people might be saying, well, that's so simple. It's not so simple. When people are- they're not necessarily baiting you, but they're saying, what do you think? What do you think? Aren't you going to weigh in? Because, you know, as we pointed out before, five years ago, if you didn't make comments about things, you could just sit there on the sidelines and stay quiet. Now, that's not the way the world is. That's not what the expectations are for corporate leaders. It's changed a lot. And we've discussed that.
Eileen Rochford [00:12:00] And one kind of trigger that I'm seeing happen that has caused some of the leaders we work with to think, "oh, no, should we be talking about this?" in an unusually high volume is the inbound queries from earned media outlets, so particularly from industry publications. So my clients aren't necessarily getting requests from, you know, super high profile media outlets, -although some of them are, and we're dealing with that- those that are receiving inbounds from reporters from, you know, say they're in, you know, a certain sector of health care. They're being asked, you know, "what are you doing about this?" And particularly if their corporate headquarters are located in states that are clearly clamping down and whether there will be any access to abortion granted at all, those companies are being targeted by industry publications in particular, because that's the makings of good headlines, right? "Ooo they're in Texas and I need to know what they think."
Rob Johnson [00:13:09] And the thing is, even if you don't have a major outlet coming to you for a quote. You give a quote to any outlet, even a trade, you know, trade publication, something that's more niche related to your industry. And if you say something interesting enough, everybody's going to pick it up. You might as well have had somebody from a major outlet reaching out to you. So there's that food for thought as well.
Eileen Rochford [00:13:30] Yeah. I mean, what I always say, Rob, is just because they're knocking on your door doesn't mean you need to answer it.
Rob Johnson [00:13:37] Yeah.
Eileen Rochford [00:13:37] And that's the truth, right? But one more thing that I'll say. And, you know, maybe this will be of value for listeners. Even if you think "I am so far off the radar, there is no way anybody is going to call me. No way." Well, they might. And if they call you and you really don't have- well, let's say you haven't prepared for it. You haven't thought through. What would I say? And we all know the very last thing you want printed about you is you weren't reachable, you didn't return phone calls, or you said no comment, please.
Rob Johnson [00:14:11] The worst thing ever.
Eileen Rochford [00:14:11] Who doesn't know that's not the thing to do right now, please.
Rob Johnson [00:14:15] That was like episode one or two, wasn't it?
Eileen Rochford [00:14:17] Like, maybe that was like 15 years ago we are talking about, I don't know. So, okay, point made, having a statement prepared in advance that can be so simple as a sentence or two sentences. It doesn't have to be anything more than that. But the exercise of thinking through, "Gosh, what statement do I want to have in the event that I have to provide something", right? That is at a minimum, an exercise that everybody should be doing right now because the story is making its way through all of the cycles and as it gets kind of, you know, lather, rinse, repeated over and over there, the trade publications increasing, they're going to be looking for something different and they're probably going to come to you. So just have something to say that is not "no comment." That's all I ask. This is Eileen begging you, don't do that, please.
Rob Johnson [00:15:09] And I will completely support that, because that's just the laziest thing that you can possibly do as a company and to be thoughtful, no matter where you fall on this side of the issue, to have been thoughtful and to have thought it out and to have thought out does it align with your values and things of that nature? And again, you don't have to write a whole book about it. You can write a couple sentences. If it's not something you're comfortable talking about, then figure out a way to artfully put that together and that'll speak for you. And if you do want to speak out and you do think there's value in that, and do you think it's important for you to be on the record and heard, then you really need to be thinking about the question and answer, the back and forth with various outlets.
Eileen Rochford [00:16:00] For sure. Where will the dialog go?
Rob Johnson [00:16:02] Right. So, as we take a deeper dive into the risks companies face by wading into this controversial topic, I want to give an example of one executive who did so and explained his rationale. I thought this was very interesting. Jeremy Stoppelman, who's the chief executive at Yelp, said it was important to speak out on the issue of abortion, even if there wasn't a business case for doing so. And he knew there would be opposition to his position. So he's quoted as saying, "When you speak out on these issues, not everyone is going to agree. As we looked at this, we felt quite strongly that this was the right thing to do. It's been 50 years of settled law." So you can appreciate that. On one hand, he's saying there's not really a business case for doing this because it's not going to- it may earn more business, but it may lose some business. Which is going to help is the bottom line, and then it sounds like what he's talking about is going beyond the bottom line and talking about being on the record and saying something, even if not everybody is going to agree. So I just thought that was an interesting take that he had. And some of these CEOs, these leaders have been on the record and they've been very clear about what they think. And I just like that one example of Jeremy Stoppelman of Yelp.
Eileen Rochford [00:17:20] And it's interesting in that instance, what I see coming through there is almost a value in and of itself. And I'd be curious to look at Yelp's values, but the value of basically doing the right thing, and if you feel that's the right thing, then saying something about the issue is right for you, right? So in their case, that was an excellent choice. But there are many examples of companies that took similar outspoken positions against the ruling. So let's review a couple of those. I'm hopeful that everyone has seen that the Walt Disney Company said it will reimburse employees who must travel out of state to get an abortion. That was kind of big news for Walt Disney to do that. Like, wow, I was a little shocked when I saw that. But in neither way, you know, I'm hopeful that no one's guess my position on this issue just yet. But I was just surprised that Walt Disney would do that. Also, the Associated Press reported that Facebook parent, Meta, American Express, Bank of America and Goldman Sachs, they said they would cover employee travel costs and some others like like Apple, Starbucks, Lyft and Yelp. We've talked about them a second ago. They reiterated because they had made previous statements or announcements, you know, taking similar actions that they would be supportive, right? Patagonia, they went so far as to post on LinkedIn that it would provide training and bail for those who peacefully protest for reproductive justice and time off to vote, which, you know, I just think that's there was the time off to vote for thing alone. I wish every company did that. I think that's fantastic. But that's just kind of a smattering of those who took, you know, that they were- I don't know what you want to call it- they were opposed to the overturning of the ruling of Roe v Wade. And I don't know if you want to talk about that, but there's just this kind of elephant in the room of these giant companies that have said nothing.
Rob Johnson [00:19:22] Before we get there, I do like Patagonia because we refer to them in the past in terms of, you know, speaking out on issues like this, not like this, but issues that are more controversial, I should say, because there's nothing like this and, you know, everybody else is saying, hey, we're going to provide travel expenses to go, you know, this and that. And of course, they say we're going to do training and bail for those who peacefully protest and who are arrested or give you the time off to vote thing, as you mentioned, is a great idea. But some of these companies are companies you've heard before who have been outspoken about it. But then there's some other big brands, as you just mentioned, that were, I guess some people might say, surprisingly quiet.
Eileen Rochford [00:20:05] Yeah and some interpret that as being complicit, as you know. So who knows? It's a double edged sword whether you decide to say something and even if you decide to not say something, you're not going to please everybody, right. So let's see, we talked about McDonald's, PepsiCo, Coca-Cola, General Motors, Tyson and Marriott. They didn't respond to the Associated Press inbound questions about, "hey, what's your stance on this?" Nothing. Crickets. Wal-Mart, they're in Arkansas, the nation's largest employer. They've got a lot of employees in states that will immediately trigger abortion bans and they haven't said a word either. So in that whole impact on employees, because of where you're located, that's something that is a repercussion of this on a wholly different level, having nothing to do with brand reputation. You know, lots of companies have said many even in the tech sector have said this is going to be a problem because you're already in this giant void of enough talent to fill open job positions, particularly in white collar industries. So if you're choosing as an organization- particularly really, really large employer- to not say anything, even from the health care benefit perspective, then, you know, there's predictions that that can be very problematic not too far in the future from an employer perspective.
Rob Johnson [00:21:39] And, you know, you mentioned all these huge national and international brands. McDonald's, Pepsi, Coke, General Motors, Tyson, Marriot didn't respond. Wal-Mart. It feels like Wal-Mart's the biggest employer and that means they're everywhere, too. But it feels like because so much of their identity can be rooted in states where where the abortion bans will be triggered, as you mentioned earlier, it feels like they all have a lot at stake. It feels like they have even more at stake because a lot of their centers of strength are in those states where the abortion bans will go into effect. And so that's a really dicey situation for a company like that. But again, by virtue of the fact that they're the nation's largest employer, you can't say, oh, they're only in areas, you know, that are more conservative because, yes, they are. And they're headquartered in a place that's more conservative, but they're everywhere.
Eileen Rochford [00:22:44] That's right. They are everywhere. They're just down the street from me. That's for sure. Yeah. So there's there's a lot to be considered here. Health care is typically accessed by Americans through employers, right. So, if you can't get coverage for a medically necessary abortion and you also can't get access to the care that you need in the state where you happen to reside and it's a life threatening situation that's terrible. Like, I mean, would you even consider that before you take a job somewhere?
Rob Johnson [00:23:21] Oh, we're getting to that. We're getting to that shortly.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:24] Oh, good. Yeah, good. I mean, yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:23:26] Because it's a big issue and we have some research to to back up some of the thoughts that you just had there on that front.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:34] Yeah, pardon me. I have a tickle in my throat. So, sorry about that. I keep having to mute myself.
Rob Johnson [00:23:40] Oh, you're good. So, I was I was also interested in this because when you and I discussed this, you said you were fascinated by the discussions on LinkedIn about people that were just, you know, there might have been a an official position from a company. But there might have been an employee that's just like "Hey." They're just out there, and free speech. Yes, they're allowed to and we get that, that are that may not align with the company line. True?
Eileen Rochford [00:24:15] Oh, it was. I've never seen anything like it and I've talked to so many communications and marketing professionals, colleagues, friends about what happened, what was unleashed on LinkedIn on June 24th, 2022. It was as if everyone decided that, you know, not just the gloves are off, which for many that, you know, because of how they were impacted and feel about this, that was, you know, very much evidence and in their minds, totally justified. But just forgetting entirely that this is a professional network, the social network of LinkedIn. And while we're here, we are not just ourselves in our own voices and have, you know, freedom of expression and First Amendment rights. But more so, we are ambassadors of the organizations we represent, those for whom we work if we happen to work for someone else's company, right? That just seemed to be totally forgotten by a large percentage of those engaging with comments and posting of their own content on LinkedIn on that day again on June 24th 2020. I personally was was astonished. It was hard to work that day just because of, you know, psychologically the impact of this ruling. But it was the distraction of what people were posting that day and going to such a degree to say things I've never seen people talk about on LinkedIn. And there was one case that I'll that I mentioned in particular, I found this kind of disturbing. It's just one example of of many that I witnessed. But for the purposes of brevity for our podcast today, I'll just say this. So there was a person who works for a company that is very large, very large employer, a software company. And that company had changed its logo for Pride Month in support of Pride. And so that logo is right next to that person's name. You know, when you look at their profile and it's evident and the company name is right underneath them, as you know, they're commenting on various posts. And here's the train of what I saw. So this person first starts commenting on pages of people I know, posts of people I know, who were talking about their distress over the ruling and they're, you know, shock, astonishment, etc.. So just first, this person's posting things like go woke, go broke. And I thought, okay, well, you're just a jerk.
Rob Johnson [00:27:06] Monumental step forward.
Eileen Rochford [00:27:09] Exactly. So, you know, "this is a terrible day for America" would be the post of, say, the person that I knew. And this commenter from this very large software company saying "this is a monumental step forward. It's a great day for America," that kind of thing, right. But I kind of just sometimes think, is that person a troll? Are they real? So I click on the profile and I learn that they're real and they have also been commenting on- there were many articles, as you probably recall, about Clarence Thomas's commentary that this ruling opens the door for additional repeals of granted rights, particularly those pertaining to things related to gay marriage and others along those lines. Those are rights that were granted to, you know, say, marginalized populations or people. And it's almost like, game on, let's take it all away, right. Was pretty much the intent of what I read through Clarence Thomas's narrative. Say, Forbes there was a great article, for example, that dug real deep into that. This person all over it with their pride month logo colors emblazoned right next to their name, talking about how- "do it take it all away, undo gay marriage rights, etc.."
Rob Johnson [00:28:40] It's really surprising to me. I've said this before, Eileen, that in a world where especially with things like awareness of DEI and and other issues, that inclusivity seems to be the way the world is going. And then you see an example that you just gave and you realize, oh, maybe it's not. Maybe not everybody feels that way. Maybe there are people out there that do want rights taken away from people. Like who wants rights taken away from- you don't want rights taken away from you. And especially if you are marginalized, as you said, don't you want to give everybody more human rights and not less? And that discussion seems to say, let's take it, let's take them all. Let's go back to the, you know, the old times and I didn't think that's the way the world was going, but apparently maybe I'm not correct in that assumption.
Eileen Rochford [00:29:33] I think, please, this ruling in and of itself is evidence that that's not the case, Rob.
Rob Johnson [00:29:37] Yeah, I mean, 50 years. Let's go back. Let's go back 50 years.
Eileen Rochford [00:29:41] For sure. Yeah, but as a marketer, right, as a professional communicator, I saw that and I thought to myself, oh, boy, you know, if I were a customer of that organization and I'm thinking about not only my personal values, but the values that I thought were espoused by the organization that I've been buying from probably millions of dollars, because we're talking huge contracts here. If I saw employees of that organization behaving in this manner, would that impact me? Would I reconsider my relationship as a customer with that organization? It's just an interesting question.
Rob Johnson [00:30:23] I think another interesting question that dovetails off of that, Eileen, is I see people do that and I know they have the right of free speech. We know that's free speech. I get it, I know. I mean, in my old business, that's you know, that's what we said all the time, because that was the truth. I do wonder, though, when you put yourself out there so publicly, if you are not entirely aligned with the leadership in that company or the company line that is being preached. Are you are you putting yourself in professional peril? Maybe that's not even a consideration, but especially on an outlet like LinkedIn, that would be an absolute consideration for me if I knew that bosses were looking at a very- I mean, it's different than sharing your personal beliefs. It always seems to be about rooted in professional development and things of that nature. .
Eileen Rochford [00:31:16] It largely has been. I would agree with you. June 24th, 2022, things looked a lot different that day on LinkedIn. It was kind of amazing to see, you know, the personal but not that I disagree with being used in that way at all.
Rob Johnson [00:31:35] You just hadn't seen it.
Eileen Rochford [00:31:36] Hadn't seen to that volume, no. I would just say, you know, I'm separating myself from my personal beliefs and my personal values as an observer of that behavior on a professional social network. I did have the immediate thought of, wow, should this be something that brands worry about and look for and consider when, you know, so that employee may be someone in the fold right now. But moving forward, should that be incorporated as a consideration for are they a fit? Yeah, that's a question obviously for, you know, employment lawyers and for human resource officers, right. I get that. But I'm putting it out there as a question because increasingly, if your people aren't behaving publicly on social, particularly professional social platforms, in a manner that is in alignment in accordance with your own brand values, should you be worried about that? Should you take a second look at that employee? I'm just putting it out there.
Rob Johnson [00:32:51] Right. That's why I took what you said and tried to take it a step further and now you've taken it one another step, which is, you know, are you putting yourself in professional peril by being so outspoken about things like this?
Eileen Rochford [00:33:05] Yeah, that's right.
Rob Johnson [00:33:07] To me, I would think yeah, you would be but, you know, nobody asked me. So I'm just giving you you my opinion. But I do want to get to what you had talked about a little bit earlier about these certain states and the way that people, as it relates to recruiting and retaining talent, potential brain drain that could occur with people who may not want to go work in places where they may not have the access that they had before June 24th. So according to research from Terra Health Foundation, it found that two thirds of college educated workers would be discouraged from taking a job in a place like Texas, for instance, that has a restrictive abortion law and would not apply for jobs in states that had similar laws. So I think the subtext here is there's certainly going to be states that are going to outlaw abortion, access to abortion and do you want to live there? Do you want to work there? And a lot of people are having this moment and saying, I don't know if I want to live in a place like that. And I think it's a fair question.
Eileen Rochford [00:34:16] Oh, I've even seen people going so far as to say, you know, they may have one or more college age children who are about to make decisions next year about where to go, saying they're encouraging their child to reconsider the states in which they're searching and what their final selection, where their final school selection is located because of this ruling. It's amazing the repercussions into personal lives, at least right now, you know, for initial reactions, that's what we see. But yeah, will this impact attracting talent to your organization? I think the chances are pretty good that it will, that's just my personal prediction.
Rob Johnson [00:35:04] Yeah. And again, as I mentioned a second ago, it's a fair question because, you know, how do you want to live your life? What are you comfortable doing? And a lot of people in some of those states that are going to restrict access to abortion, these are decisions they make at the legislative level, at the state level and that's their right to do that and it's also the right of really top talent who may not agree with that outlook to say, I don't want to be there, I don't want any part of it. So we're not saying, hey, it's right or Hey, it's wrong. We're just saying these are really deep questions that are being asked on a minute by minute basis right now in this country.
Eileen Rochford [00:35:49] Yeah. And you know, it's funny, I don't know that I've seen this. Have you, Rob, have you seen any companies coming out already saying that they're going to relocate their corporate headquarters because of this?
Rob Johnson [00:36:02] I have not.
Eileen Rochford [00:36:04] I don't think that I have yet.
Rob Johnson [00:36:04] I have not seen that yet but this is an interesting- this is not central to this discussion- but when I saw it, I thought to myself, gosh, this is a really nice sort of side discussion about what's going on, because a place like the city of Chicago that's lost a ton of business because of tax issues and the business climate, and we hear about a day in and day out, right? Eileen, we hear about how this company left and then-
Eileen Rochford [00:36:32] Citadel just pulled off.
Rob Johnson [00:36:33] Yeah, somebody's- not a mom and pop shop- it's Citadel. So all of these companies have left Illinois in Chicago, but the city of Chicago, with help of World Business Chicago, started a letter writing campaign to these companies. And even though a lot of places and a lot of companies have said, hey, we don't want to do business in Illinois now the pitch is, and I'll quote it, "as you weigh the repercussions facing your employees, customers and vendors, we welcome the opportunity to highlight the ways in which Chicago remains a welcoming city for all." So, a city like Chicago- that's had issues with violence and with the tenor of the way business is done- is now saying, Hey, we're welcoming. We want all people here. Maybe you should move your headquarters to Illinois and specifically Chicago, because we're welcoming and because your workers aren't going to have to deal with some of the things you might have to deal with in other states. I think it's a fascinating strategy.
Eileen Rochford [00:37:37] It is and they just moved so quickly on that. That's impressive. Where was the open letter place, do you recall?
Rob Johnson [00:37:44] I believe it was in like Wall Street Journal and some of the bigger publications. I mean, I think the places where these decisionmakers would be spending time is where they were sending out, you know, putting out this open letter.
Eileen Rochford [00:37:57] And do you remember the highlighted ways in which Chicago remains a welcoming city for all?
Rob Johnson [00:38:03] The highlighted ways?
Eileen Rochford [00:38:04] Yeah, the things that they highlighted- like the specifics.
Rob Johnson [00:38:07] I think specifically on this front, it was about this particular issue. I know that Chicago has had in other ways has always kind of fancied itself as a welcoming city. But I believe in the context of this letter, it was, hey, this just happened. I mean, it had just happened.
Eileen Rochford [00:38:26] That's incredible.
Rob Johnson [00:38:27] And it felt like a day or two later. "Hey, you want to have a welcoming city for all the people, for your employees and customers and vendors?" So, there was not a lot of inference there because I think everybody understood what it was about, but if there was such a thing, it was that, hey, this is a place that welcomes everybody, whether it be your employees, customers and vendors. So I thought it was very interesting and clearly they had thought it out prior.
Eileen Rochford [00:39:04] Well, they had 30 days.
Rob Johnson [00:39:05] It happened. Yeah, a leak thing.
Eileen Rochford [00:39:09] Yeah. So at least had the benefit of the leak to prepare.
Rob Johnson [00:39:14] Yes, they did have the benefit of the leak. There's no doubt. There's no doubt about that, but I just think it really opens up some interesting questions about how other places might try to lure people. You know, our tax situation well, I mean, depending on what corporation you are, you can get a great deal. Not everybody does. But how are you going to move forward? And what is the most important thing? Is the bottom line your most important factor? Or is it an issue like this?
Eileen Rochford [00:39:48] Right. It was a very smart move on the part of the city of Chicago and World Business Chicago to do that. I mean, gosh, we've got huge billboards right there on the Kennedy from Cleveland and other parts of Ohio saying relocate here. I know we've seen them from other states, too, up and down our highway. You know why deal with what you're dealing with in this horrible traffic right now? Bring your company to Indiana. Bring your company to whereever- we see that stuff all the time. So I'm glad to see that, you know, Chicago and World Business Chicago are leveraging this as the opportunity that it could be depending on the organization. And that's just smart marketing too, what they did and I'm pointing that out.
Rob Johnson [00:40:28] And they have not always been accused of doing smart marketing. So that was even, you know, even more impressive. I mean, so when you sit here and you're the city of Chicago and you're pitching yourself to Fortune 500 companies and you're trying to kind of turn the narrative that has not necessarily helped you. This is this is really good stuff.
Eileen Rochford [00:40:49] Yeah, it was in bold. I love to see that because Chicago is a great city, but I don't know. I feel like I've been feeling for a while, like we're on our back foot, you know? You gotta get off that.
Rob Johnson [00:40:59] No, I think you're absolutely right. And so, I mean, to sit here and to reach out to these big business leaders and to be less than subtle about it, because that's what you're talking about.
Eileen Rochford [00:41:12] That was great, it was totally in your face.
Rob Johnson [00:41:14] I mean, and then, you know, this is signed by Mayor Lightfoot, Mellody Hobson, of course, who is the co-CEO of Ariel Investment and the CEO of World Business Chicago. So, it is very specific and they're concerned that residents of those states, meaning the states that would overturn access to abortion, including those that work at your company may suffer as a result of this decision. Families and individuals cannot be punished for private health care decisions. Not to mention, many lives will be upended as people are stripped of a 50 year old right. So powerfully written and and I think it's a very interesting way to market yourself.
Eileen Rochford [00:41:58] Nicely done, hats off to them. We applaud that. Good marketing, for sure. Really good. Well, there's lots of things for our listeners and business leaders to deal with here. It's a complex topic but I hope we've provided some good food for thought today and a little bit of guidance.
Rob Johnson [00:42:16] I do. I hope we have and I know that we got into a lot here and we could go on and on, but we don't have all that time, unfortunately. So that's going to do it for another episode of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson.
Eileen Rochford [00:42:29] And I'm Eileen Rochford. We thank you everybody, for listening. Hope you learned a thing or two along the way. Remember, you can listen to our podcast wherever you get your podcasts and please do join us next time.