What happens when the boss sets expectations or strategy, and it is not met? There are many reasons that can happen. Sometimes the issue is that the person being managed didn’t understand the objectives. In this episode of the Can You Hear Me Podcast, co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford take a deep dive into chapter four of Rob’s new Overcommunicate book, and examine The Illusion we are communicating when we are not”, with his former DePauw University communications professor, and the subject of chapter four, Dr. Jeff McCall.
Jeffrey M. McCall is a Professor of Communication at DePauw University. He is a public commentator on media and journalistic ethics and standards. He is a contributing op-ed columnist for The Hill. His columns have also appeared in USA Today, Indianapolis Star, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Chicago Tribune and dozens of other papers. He makes frequent appearances on radio, television and cable news outlets. He has been interviewed and quoted by over 125 newspapers nationwide, including the New York Times, USA Today, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune and others.
McCall teaches courses in electronic journalism, communication ethics, media law, and media culture. He is the faculty supervisor of DePauw’s nationally recognized radio station, WGRE-FM. He has professional media experience as a radio news director and as a correspondent for National Public Radio.
McCall is the author of the book, Viewer Discretion Advised: Taking Control of Mass Media Influences, published by Rowman & Littlefield.
McCall earned a BA from DePauw University, an MA from the University of Illinois, and the PhD from the University of Missouri.
https://www.amazon.com/Overcommunicate-Business-Executives-Aspiring-Leaders/dp/B0GWQ9XJNP
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Rob Johnson: Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Can You Hear Me podcast. I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications.
Eileen Rochford: And I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the marketing and strategy firm, The Harbinger Group. Today, we're going to discuss Rob's new book, Overcommunicate: A Guide for Business Executives and Aspiring Leaders, which was released in April. Um Rob, give us an update. How's it going so far?
Rob Johnson: Well, I have to say, to have spent 14 months going through the entire publishing process from just coming up with ideas, to doing interviews, to writing, to doing a pre-sale campaign, to revisions and, you know, copy editing and proofreading and layout and, you know, the cover art, and then to realize when it came out in April, I only just got to the start line. Now, now you got to sell it. You got to get people to read it. You got to you have to get people to talk about it. And so, it's been very exciting, and I'm I'm proud that I was able to do it. I I said in my acknowledgments at the end of the book, I think it's something like 81% of people say, "Oh, I got a book in me. I can write a book." And about 1 or 2% actually do it. So, I'm proud of that, but it is a journey. So, podcasts like this, book signings, uh vary- you know, getting in front of different professional groups, that's kind of where I'm at right now, and it's and it's a lot of fun to be able to talk about it and have people read it, and hopefully if they read it and they give a review on Amazon and say, "Man, that really made a lot of sense," or "That really I really connected with that that thought." So, it's it's going.
Eileen Rochford: That's great! That's great! Well, today we're going to spend a bit of time talking about the fourth chapter of your book, "The Illusion We Are Communicating When We Are Not," and in it you wrote, and I'm going to quote here. Okay. "You cannot execute your external strategy with stakeholders if like customers, vendors, the media and the public, you don't first painstakingly achieve alignment with your leadership and by extension, all of your employees." And then you go on to write, "They are your greatest assets and cheerleaders, lending a megaphone to your message that will amplify and solidify it in ways you can't do individually." That feels like it is the crux of the entire book in some regards.
Rob Johnson: It really is, and and people know this that know us that uh you're the subject of chapter nine of the book, uh "Communicating in a Remote Working Environment." So, I've got two of my go-to favorite people on this uh podcast today. But it is the crux of it because when I define when I first said overcommunicate, and I realized there's a negative connotation to that in some regards, I had to make sure everybody understood I wasn't talking about micromanaging. "Hey, I sent my co-worker 75 emails." It was making sure that everybody is aligned, making sure that those messages are clear, making sure that the people that work for you are know exactly where things are headed. So, that is my definition of overcommunicate, and the parts you just quoted really speak to that. So, it's it's pretty it's it's been exciting, and I and I love it that it starts conversations with people, you know?
Eileen Rochford: Right. And the whole book is basically conversations with people, which is pretty interesting, too.
Rob Johnson: It is. It is. I mean, obviously, I built chapter four uh around our next guest. I've built chapter nine around you and various other people, as well, and solidified it with research and then secondary stories and but but you all, you know, you made it happen. So, if we're really going to dive into this subject today, we're going to be joined by the focus of chapter four, as we mentioned, media critic and DePauw University communications professor, Dr. Jeff McCall. Jeff was my communications professor and radio station advisor at WGRE, the radio station at DePauw University, DePauw with a "W", in Greencastle, Indiana, many moons ago. I won't say how many, but it's been a while. But he was uh he was a child prodigy because he's still he's still teaching there 40 years later. Uh Jeff, welcome to Can You Hear Me? It is so nice to have you, and I just so appreciative of everything you've done for me over all these decades.
Jeff McCall: Well, you're welcome, Rob. Uh thanks for having me on this program, uh and congratulations on your book. I think that's a great accomplishment, and uh I'm really glad to uh be part of it, so congratulations and best wishes for continued success on that.
Rob Johnson: Well, I I appreciate that. And I should also say, Eileen, because I know that when we do the podcast, we have a lot of dynamic Marquette University grads on here, you know, you guys are, you know, powerful, mighty group. And I don't often get many DePauw people on here, so this is a nod to like, yeah, let me get a let me get a few of my people on here. So, here he is.
Eileen Rochford: Well done! Glad to have you, Jeff.
Jeff McCall: Thank you.
Eileen Rochford: And yay for DePauw! Yay!
Rob Johnson: There you go. There we go.
Eileen Rochford: Okay, so to kick this off, um Jeff, we always like to give our listeners some background and context, um so how about if you tell us all a little more about yourself, um your origin story if you will, how you got to where you are today, and definitely we'd love to hear about some of your work as a media critic.
Jeff McCall: Okay, great. Thanks a lot. Well, I went to college in the '70s, and I went to DePauw University myself, so it's kind of unusual to go to school as an undergraduate and then later return on the faculty, uh but I did that. Uh I was interested in communication when I was here, and got involved in student radio and student newspaper when I was on campus. Uh so I always enjoyed the prospect and the challenge, frankly, of communicating. So, I studied that when I was here. Uh upon leaving DePauw, I immediately went and did my master's at the University of Illinois where I continued to study communication. Uh and from there, I went off to become uh a radio news director, uh and I worked in the media for several years, not not nearly as long as Rob in his distinguished career, but I was a radio news director for several years. Um and I worked as a stringer for NPR and the Missouri Network for a time. Uh but then after a while, I kind of had the lure to get back into the academy and went back to do my PhD at the University of Missouri in Columbia. Um and when I was wrapping that up, I was on the job market then at that point. Um and so uh it turns out DePauw had an opening then, and I was I was interested in continuing uh to be an academic and within the liberal arts community. So, I came to DePauw. Uh that's been 41 years now, and uh it's it's been great uh partly because uh I like being in a liberal arts undergraduate environment, but partly because I get to work with really dedicated and inspiring students, such as Rob Johnson. [laughs] Uh so that's been great. Um you know, at a liberal arts school, you can do some things that are a little different than people who are in the like normal publish-and-perish world of uh like Division I research schools. Um and so I decided uh a number of years ago that really one of the things I wanted to accomplish uh professionally and academically was to reach out uh to to the population at large, uh and not just to write for other academics, which is where a lot of like journal articles go, uh just in front of other academics. So, uh kind of my theme became media literacy, and that's the notion that average people, average Americans, um need to know more about how the media operate and what goes on behind the scenes and what are the judgments that are made uh in media circles. And so, I started writing opinion and media analysis columns uh for various newspapers around the country, and they're designed to be um kind of like quick hitters. You know what a column looks like at a newspaper, 700 to 800 words, but they would take on First Amendment issues, or news judgment issues, or maybe uh cultural issues uh regarding programming or content. And I started writing for a number of newspapers around the country as a freelancer, of course. Uh and then that leads, of course, to when you get noticed a little bit, get your name out there and people see columns, uh you end up getting contacted by radio producers or television producers. And so, I've had a fair amount of discussion on talk radio stations around the country, and in some cases television outlets. That's been great. Uh and my primary outlet now, as I write, uh is uh the DC-based publication called The Hill, uh which I think is a really prestigious news organization, and it gets very good ratings from uh people who study the media uh for being balanced uh and objective and professional. And The Hill, of course, focuses primarily on government, public affairs, politics and that sort of thing. It doesn't usually get distracted with like Taylor Swift updates and that sort of thing. So, I like writing for The Hill, and I've written for them uh not quite exclusively, but pretty much for them over the last eight or nine years. So, uh I like being able to kind of share my media perspectives, my media takes uh with the people out there in the real world, uh and uh I find that rewarding. And you know, it's it's interesting because I I get a good deal of feedback. You'd be surprised from people who read a piece in The Hill and contact you with to share their perspective, and it's it's like creating a dialogue, which I really like. Uh most of it is supportive, although as you know, in the uh uh in the media world, you stick your nose out there, sometimes people are going to uh talk back a little bit. Uh but you know, I even appreciate people who don't agree with me as long as they're civil.
Eileen Rochford: Yes, yeah.
Jeff McCall: If they if they send me an email or call on the phone um and say, "Hey, I disagree. Here's my point of view." I'm glad to engage in them, uh and fortunately that's most of the people who are civil, which I appreciate. But anyway, I kind of like having that media outlet because uh by thinking in those terms, by reaching out to the public, uh it allow- it gives me different perspectives to take into my classroom. So, the ideas I write about, I can talk about in class. Uh feedback I get, I can share with students and say, "This was another perspective on something I wrote." Uh so I've I've enjoyed being a media analyst, and I I feel like I'm a little overrated in that regard by calling myself that. Uh but it is I think it is true that one of the problems in higher education today is that a lot of the discussion goes on within kind of the the the locker room of higher education and not shared more broadly, uh and that's kind of been my objective throughout my career is to to share more broadly media literacy.
Rob Johnson: I have to say, too, as a the former student that would see you on maybe CNN or something that you had written in The Hill or wherever else or the Indianapolis Star, it was always a big kick for me because you could easily be talking to people that speak your language in academia and share these ideas and sharing them with your students like you did with me all those years ago. Or you can, you know, current events. You're out there. You're putting yourself out there. I just think it's exciting, so I've always thought that was um that was that was something cool that you did because, you know, not not a lot of people do it. They're like, "Hey, I've got this great gig at this wonderful university, and uh I'm good." But but you're uh you're out there and you're putting yourself out there.
Eileen Rochford: Yeah. And it's a service. I mean, particularly right now. I mean, especially for the length of time that you've been doing it, there's been so much changing and and and the manipulation of messaging from public figures and through the media. People need to understand how news gets made to even appreciate that they have that, right? That's to even- it is, it is a privilege to have news coverage like we have in the United States. And uh we don't we see people taking it for granted, so I really appreciate that you do that to to end that.
Jeff McCall: Thank you. And that that's one of the reasons that's one of the reasons I like to write frequently about First Amendment and free press issues because I don't think people understand that that's not common around the world, uh to have a free press, uh the right to express yourself and criticize the government, um or to just have your own say, um and and religious expression is part of that. Uh and in the last few years, we've noticed a lot about like the right to assemble, which is part of the First Amendment, too. And I think uh Americans need to understand why that was put in our Constitution, uh and how it operates. Uh and as as I say to in class sometimes, pretty much everybody likes a little bit of censorship. That we we would like to shut some other people up. Uh but it's really important that as a society, we recognize uh that we need to kind of coexist, and we kind of have have what I call a functional interdependence. That I'm going to allow you to have your say, and to publish your works, uh and to say what you want or to assemble when you want, and in exchange, I expect you to let me have my say, uh and the in the same way. And I think that's kind of a disturbing thing in our nation right now is I'm not sure as a as a society, we all buy into functional interdependence because I think there's too often um an urge to want to like stifle people or censor people or shut people up. Uh so I think as a nation, we need to really be devoted to saying we need to stick to these kind of constitutional principles. Our founders were geniuses. They created a First Amendment for a reason, uh and for 250 years, it's worked, and we need to make sure it continues to work.
Eileen Rochford: Yeah. I was just about to say that if I were in charge of the 250th anniversary of the United States theme, what you just described is what would be the theme.
Rob Johnson: It's so it's so important, right?
Eileen Rochford: It is.
Rob Johnson: Well, let's let's pivot to your participation in the book, which I have mentioned how grateful I am that you did this. But this was a conversation we had in probably February of uh '25 when I was just kind of getting my author positioning together. I hadn't written a word yet, and you and I were catching up, and you and we were talking about it. And I didn't even I didn't even have ideas for chapters yet, and you said something about the illusion we are communicating when we're not. And I was like, "Whoa, that is amazing." So, for our listeners out there, this concept is derived from a quote by the late playwright George Bernard Shaw, "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." That's what he said, and then you brought it up. And we had a very robust conversation about it, and we end up interviewing you for the book, and then you're in the book. So, what is this so what is the concept of the illusion we're communicating when we're not? What does that mean to you?
Jeff McCall: Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. And I remember that conversation and how much I enjoyed it uh, and I'm glad it helped, you know, spark uh a chapter in your book. But uh there are a lot of misconceptions about how communication works, uh which is one of the reasons I like to talk about media literacy. But I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that people have the impression, uh or the misconception, that if they have an idea or a thought, they can just like put it in a little package of words and hand it to somebody else, and that means that they have communicated. Uh and we know communication is much more complex than that. It has to be more strategic, uh and we have to understand our audiences. And sometimes if you think, "Oh, I've got an idea. I'm going to put it in a little box and hand it to somebody, they'll get it," um misconstrues the notion that maybe they don't understand the terminology you're using, or they don't understand your motivation. And so, message clarity uh is important. And to be able to to be an effective communicator takes work, and it takes practice, and it takes a focus on the people you're trying to communicate with, more than maybe the focus is on you all the time. Communication is an other-centered process, and I think that's one of the issues with the quote from George Bernard Shaw Bernard Shaw is that we have the impression we've communicated because we're only thinking about what we think as opposed to what anybody else thinks. And being an effective communicator uh is not innate. People think, "Oh, everybody can talk since they were 18 months old," uh but that doesn't mean they talk effectively or communicate effectively. And the one thing I like to tell my students in class is even all the greatest athletes in the world still have coaches, because they might have great physical talent and they might be, you know, a physical specimen or something like that, but somebody still needs to coach them on how to run the plays, uh what technique will make them faster or jump higher or whatever. And so, you think of all the great Olympians, they all had coaches that helped them become better, and that's one of the things I think is important when we study and think about communication is we can do it kind of in a, you know, average way, or we can work to become highly effective communicators. And I think, you know, given the problems we have in the world and even in our personal lives or our workplace lives, we would rather be more effective than less effective, and I think people need to recognize that studying communication and practicing it strategically, uh and with, you know, a conscious approach, is better than just like throwing it out there and hoping for the best.
Eileen Rochford: I love the little box imagery.
Rob Johnson: It's so-
Eileen Rochford: I'm I'm not going to forget that one. Every time I think I'm getting frustrated because I feel like I've put so much work into this, why don't they understand? Well, maybe I didn't do enough of that um question-asking and probing in advance and paying attention to what's important to them to package it properly and and then have that um other-centered uhness, as you put it. Again, so there's another thing you mentioned in the chapter that I want to raise if I may, and that is um a key component of called, I think you called it perspective-taking.
Jeff McCall: Mhm.
Eileen Rochford: Is that accurate?
Jeff McCall: Yes.
Eileen Rochford: Well, I'm curious. Can you tell our listeners what is perspective-taking and why is it so crucial to good communication, effective communication?
Jeff McCall: Yeah. Well, as I mentioned, communication is a strategic process, uh and to be able to communicate with other people, we need to know where they're coming from. We need to know what are their attitudes, we need to understand our audience, uh what knowledge backgrounds do they have, uh what vocabulary are they used to using, um and I think all those things need to be figured. And when we look at uh our communication challenge with either a big audience or even an individual in our family or maybe a friend or something like that, we need to kind of put ourselves in their shoes for just a second and say, "What do they already know? What are their attitudes? What are their predispositions? And how do I devise a, you know, a message that can fit nicely, not not that we're going to like change our message or what we're going to tell them, but to help them understand better." And so, if you're using vocabulary that doesn't help, uh they're going to misunderstand, and they might not even challenge you to say, "I don't understand that," but then they'll go off confused, and you'll think you've communicated when you really haven't. Uh and this is important really in all walks of life, whether it's education, or engineering, uh or particularly in medicine, for example. Uh and just think of your own personal experiences. You go to your medical doctor and you've got, you know, an ailment or some, you know, sort of problem, uh and they start discussing to you in highly technical terms, and you're sitting there nodding and like, "I don't even know what these terms are." Uh and it's incumbent on us to have as receivers to say, "Help explain to me," but I think the burden initially needs to be on that medical doctor to say, "If I use highly technical terms, I'm going to say something that somebody's not going to get." And then, that would be one of the major reasons they wouldn't follow the protocols or the recommendations to help get themselves well. Um and and there is research out there, not that I'm an expert on that, but there is evidence out there to show that a lot of times when people uh get directed by a physician and they don't get well or to, you know, follow the procedures, it's because they didn't understand in the first place. But I and I think that parallel can be made uh in the workplace, it can be made in the classroom, it could be made in a church communication, or any number of things, uh where if we don't understand the audience we're dealing with, what their predispositions are, their attitudes, uh their ability to understand, uh we're going to be communicating, or we're going to think we're communicating, but possibly not.
Rob Johnson: Now, I want to I want to just share an anecdote, a story from the book, from this chapter, about this guy called Frank. I couldn't use everybody's name because, you know, I wanted to protect the guilty. Uh or the or the innocent. But uh this guy Frank was a is an executive, and I had a conversation with him, uh and he was talking about not getting through people not, you know, listening to him. And he talked about somebody that had a they had a meeting about a project that, you know, high priority, and then he said, "And 6 months later, he didn't do any of that. I'm thinking about firing." And I was like, "Frank, do you really think that person who gets almost no audience with the CEO would openly defy you and do exactly the opposite of what you've asked him to do? Or," to your point, Jeff, "do you think that he didn't understand what you asked him, and didn't have a relationship with you where he could ask what might be considered, oh, that's a stupid question?" Somebody might say that, even though I don't think there are such things exist. And he had to think about it because I was like, "You can't fire the guy because he didn't understand what you were saying." And he's a difficult guy, and that sort of thing, but I think that's a really important kind of story to to share that gives an, you know, gives an example of the things that you're talking about here especially relates to um perspective-taking.
Jeff McCall: Yeah, that's a that's a great anecdote, Rob, and I think it demonstrates that if if we take responsibility of ourselves to be effective communicators, we need to recognize we need to reach people on their terms, not ours.
Rob Johnson: Yep. That's That's chapter eight, "The Adaptive Leader." Eileen's so tired of me talking in chapters. I'm like, "Oh, that's chapter eight. That's chapter two."
Eileen Rochford: I feel like we should all wear t-shirts to, you know, the book signings that say, "I'm chapter four." You can wear that, Jeff, yeah.
Jeff McCall: Yeah.
Rob Johnson: So, uh one of my another favorite concept that you brought up in the book uh is one of your uh go-to quotes that you shared with me, which is, "A vastly expanded communications devices do not guarantee that much worthwhile is being communicated." That's the quote. Now, you think this would be a current day critic lamenting all the smartphones and tech that make communication more challenging in this day and age, except, and and when you told me this, I was blown away, that was from the late uh former Notre Dame president, Theodore Hesburgh, in 1957. 1957 he was talking about these communication devices. That was 70 years ago. And it remains relevant in this modern tech-driven age. So, what do you I we we may never know exactly what he meant uh in 1957, but in 2026, Jeff, what does this mean from a communications perspective about all these other tools that we have, all these other social media platforms and various other things where maybe nothing that great is being communicated?
Jeff McCall: Yeah, well, let me just say, I'm a big admirer of Father Hesburgh. Um [laughs] he became the president at Notre Dame at a very young age when Notre Dame was basically a football factory. Uh and now, we look at Notre Dame as a world-famous, you know, institute of higher education that's highly regarded for its graduate programs and its prestigious law school and business school, and he basically helped do all that. So, he he was a visionary on many levels. Uh and I must say one of the highlights of my entire life was getting to meet and have a conversation with him because uh two of my sons went to Notre Dame, and one time when I was up visiting one, my one son said, "Let's go see Father Hesburgh." And I said, "What? We just walk in?" He goes, "Sure, people go to see him all the time." And so, we went and had a conversation, and uh I really valued that opportunity to interact with him. But I think uh he was a visionary on many things, uh and I've read a number of his speeches and presentations and writings, uh and he was not just a visionary in terms of like Catholic higher education, but in terms of human beings and theology uh and and technology as we can tell by this quote. And I think what he's trying to say here is that technology only works when people use it wisely, and that technology in itself does not necessarily help us be a communicator. And I I look at college students today, or the general public today, I might even say, and I think most people think that social media is the answer to every communication issue that faces the world. And so, uh we want to post on social media, uh we want to get uh news from social media, we want to develop our personalities by monitoring social media. Uh my own personal feeling, and I'm not trying to be cynical here, uh but just make an observation uh that many of our problems are caused by social media, uh and it's not not just social media, uh but it's uh any number of uh content avenues that come out of the internet. And and radio and TV is still part of that. I mean, this is an important thing to keep in mind is that new media don't really replace old media. The old media adapt and somehow just keep going along. And so, I think as a society, we should not be so reliant on technology, media technology as convenient as it is, to solve any particular problem. It's good to get messages out uh and quickly, but a lot of the messages that get out quickly uh aren't well thought out, and a lot of the messages that get out quickly are inaccurate. And so, I'm thinking, "Well, that doesn't help because, you know, in the older days, and even when Hesburgh was talking in the '50s, radio and till- radio and television were still a little bit uh more diplomatic uh and reasoned because television news usually only came on once or twice a day, uh and the CBS Evening News with Walter Cronkite, you know, had the whole day to prepare for 30 minutes of broadcast time. Uh and now that we have cable news streaming all the time, uh they're making decisions, you know, a second at the time, uh and they're not necessarily well pondered. Uh so I think that's worth thinking about. And the other thing about like social media and texting, uh and YouTube and stuff like that is a lot of times I think people look at communication as kind of a tennis match where they bat balls back and forth a lot. Uh and the technologies we're talking about aren't necessarily very good for transactional communication uh and that, you know, a message I have that I text to somebody or put on social media gets thrown out there, and they might bat something back at us, but it's really hard to like interact in real time and to understand more than the nuances of a message. Um and so, we need communication that is transactional, and it's complex and strategic, uh but when I said that people rely on technology to solve a lot of their communication problems, uh by the way, you might find this a little weird, but in my classes every semester at the beginning of the semester, I ask students, "Have you ever been in the same room with your roommate and blinked them?" And they'll all say, "Oh, sure. I do that all the time." And I say to them, "If you're in your room with your roommate, why wouldn't you just turn around and say, 'Hey, Bill,' or 'Suzy,' or whoever, 'I have something to say to you'?" And they go, "Oh, um it's easier to just text them." I'm going, "Easier than turning around and saying their name, and having a conversation?" Now, I mean, again, I don't want to be too cynical because not everybody's doing that all the time, but I think it does show that we rely on technology to communicate uh, which also means technology might be convenient, but it only works best when it's done wisely, and I'm not sure texting our roommate to say, "Do you want to go get pizza?" uh is necessarily using it wisely.
Eileen Rochford: Not when they're sitting right next to you.
Jeff McCall: That's right.
Eileen Rochford: No, no, no. That's so funny, but I you're right. We see that we see that a lot these days, don't we? You're r- it's just a perfect example of how having many more avenues through which to communicate and technologically enabled ways to deliver uh doesn't make the message better. That's perfect example, in my opinion.
Rob Johnson: Hey.
Eileen Rochford: Okay. Um well, gosh, we don't want to give the whole, you know, meat of the sandwich on chapter four away here on the show, right? I mean, we could continue to talk about this, but then, you know, we want folks to read the book, too.
Jeff McCall: Of course.
Eileen Rochford: So, as we wrap up, um Jeff, we love to close with kind of practical guidance and insights, maybe even, you know, tools, exercises, things like that for our listeners from the experts we have on the show. So, what would you like to leave our listeners with today?
Jeff McCall: Well, this might not be very profound, but I would guess leave people when we think about communication, um I would say to to remind people that communication is a very thoroughly human thing, uh and that when we allow technology or complications, um or problems to enter into too much, uh we're probably not communicating in a genuine fashion. And so, I would say let's all keep in mind that has human beings, we're made to communicate, uh that that distinguishes us from other living things, and I would say make it as human as possible, which means having to respect and the appreciation for the people we're trying to interact with, whether they're co-workers, uh or even adversaries uh in a in some sort of maybe political or cultural debate or something like that. So, let's kind of focus on the human thing. And also, I want to just uh comment again on the the title of Rob's book. Um I don't think you can overcommunicate. Um I think uh we would be better to make sure we're communicating more than enough than to take too much for granted. So, those those are the kind of a couple thoughts I would leave.
Rob Johnson: Hear, hear.
Eileen Rochford: Great advice. Thank you. Well, it has been a pleasure speaking with you today and learning about you, Dr. Jeff McCall, media critic, DePauw University professor and the focus of Rob's book, uh chapter four in Rob's book, Overcommunicate. Um we're very grateful that you were here you spent time with us today. Thank you so much.
Jeff McCall: You're welcome. It was so kind of you to work with me and I'm chapter four.
Rob Johnson: He is chapter four, and you know how much it means, um that both of you have been as involved as you have been in the book. So, I I thank both of you and, Jeff, uh it's always, you know, a pleasure just to kick around ideas with you, so thanks for being on the program today. And that's going to do it for another edition of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson. If you'd like to comment on the podcast or suggest a topic, please contact us at our Can You Hear Me podcast page or check out our newsletter. Both are on our LinkedIn page. And also, you can go to our website at canyouhearmepod.beam.ly. We'll leave that address and all relevant information about Dr. McCall and the book in the show notes. Quick promotion, you can get it on Amazon, very easy. You can leave a wonderful review, and I will accept it.
Eileen Rochford: It's a great book. You should definitely check it out.
Rob Johnson: Haha.
Eileen Rochford: Okay everybody, thanks so much, I'm Eileen Rochford. If you liked what you heard today, please consider giving our show, Can You Hear Me, a positive review wherever you get your good stuff on Apple and Spotify, uh because that helps more listeners find our show. Thanks so much for being with us today. Take care, everyone.