For some bosses, having their direct reports adhere to their unwavering management style is imperative. But an increasing number of C-Suite leaders understand that, to get the most out of their team, they must be adaptive leaders. In today’s episode of Can You Hear Me?, co-hosts Eileen Rochford and Rob Johnson explore Chapter 8 of Rob’s new book “Overcommunicate” with CEO of the Not-For-Profit, Gateway to Learning, Kathryn Lavin. It’s called “Meeting Them Where They Are.” As an advocate in the disability community, Kathryn Heck Lavin, MSW, possesses a unique set of experiences. Kathryn has worked in numerous leadership roles supporting children and adults with Intellectual/Developmental Disabilities for over 35 years and is a mother of a daughter with IDD. She holds undergraduate degrees in Middle School Education and Human Development from Boston College, and earned her Master’s Degree in Social Work from the Jane Addams School of Social Work/UIC, while pregnant with her first child, Emily, who was born with Down syndrome. Her professional roles have included researcher, director of community relations and development, Executive Director of the National Lekotek/AblePlay Center, and she is currently the CEO of Gateway to Learning. In addition, Kathy is the founder of KiteTail Strategies®, a life coaching and healing arts practice. Ms. Lavin has advocated for inclusive education in the Chicago Public Schools, served on the boards of the National Association for Down Syndrome and the former Belle Center of Chicago, and on the Advisory Councils of the Chicago Community Trust Disabilities Fund and The Adult Down Syndrome Center. Kathryn has written several articles on inclusion and the power of play, is a Master Reiki Practitioner, and recreational artist. She and her husband, Jack, live on the northside of Chicago and have three adult children.
How to Become a Reiki Master: https://www.reiki.org/articles/becoming-reiki-master
Overcommunicate: https://www.amazon.com/Overcommunicate-Business-Executives-Aspiring-Leaders/dp/B0GWQ9XJNP
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Here is the updated transcript with "Catherine" adjusted to Kathryn:
Eileen Rochford: Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Can You Hear Me? podcast. I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the Harbinger Group, a marketing and strategy firm.
Rob Johnson: And I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications. You know, many bosses thrive on ensuring that their direct reports adhere to their management style. But what if you could get more out of them by being an adaptive leader and playing to their strengths? That's meeting them where they are, and it's chapter eight of my new book, Overcommunicate: A Guide for Business Executives and Aspiring Leaders.
Eileen Rochford: And to discuss this with us today at greater length, we are joined by Kathryn Lavin, CEO of Gateway to Learning, a Chicago not-for-profit dedicated to providing life skills, job training, and employment opportunities to adults with intellectual disabilities.
Kathy, welcome to the show! Thanks for being with us today.
Kathryn Lavin: Thanks, Eileen and Rob. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be talking to you today.
Eileen Rochford: Yay!
Rob Johnson: As are we.
Eileen Rochford: Yes, very much so. So, I just want to let our listeners in on, you know, your secrets about yourself, Kathy—just kidding. Your backstory! Tell us, you know, who you really are, how you got to your position today, and what brought you to Gateway to Learning, so everybody can just understand you a bit more before we dive in.
Kathryn Lavin: Yeah, sure. I would say that, in a nutshell, I've been in the non-profit space for almost 40 years. I know that's hard to believe, but it's been almost 40 years.
I've done everything—from being in a program supervising line staff, to being a staff educator in New Jersey, coming here to Chicago and getting my MSW, doing research at UIC, being a community outreach director, and being in development. All of that all the way up to now, CEO.
I will say that despite all those hats and roles, the thing that has influenced me most is being a mother. Particularly to my soon-to-be 30-year-old, who's my oldest, who has Down syndrome. So, I guess you might say it's been divine intervention to bring me to Gateway to Learning.
Rob Johnson: It really is, and you're the perfect person to be there. You know, for the listeners that may not know, we've been friends for more than 25 years and have connected with a common bond because Emily and Edward, my brother, both have Down syndrome, as you just mentioned about Emily.
As I was writing this book, I was looking to find the perfect people for each chapter that I had an idea for. And a reminder, Eileen is chapter nine, everyone—Communicating in a Remote Working Environment. So I have two subjects of the book that are on this podcast today!
I was able, though, Kathy, to watch you with your team on various projects that we've worked on together over the past few years. I really did appreciate your collaborative approach and the fact that you got the most out of people by tapping into their personality. In other words, you're meeting them where they are.
That's the name of the chapter. The minute I realized I wanted to focus on that subject matter, I was thinking, "Who would be good to do that?" You immediately came to mind.
I know what it means to me, and you've read the book. What does it mean to you to be an adaptive—and adaptable—leader?
Kathryn Lavin: That is a great question, right? I think you said it perfectly: it's meeting people where they are. But what that means is really looking at what their strengths are, what they're good at, and if they're in the right positions. What's the capacity need for the organization?
I think I've shared that I came into Gateway at a very turbulent time for the organization. The former CEO had passed away. I think coming in and saying, "Okay, what does this organization need? What do all the stakeholders need? What do the families and the people we support really need, and how do we meet that?"
Then, looking at the team and asking, "Is this team the right team here as we move forward? Do people feel heard? Do they feel respected?" I don't know, just looking at other people's—just what they're good at and responding to that, and what they need support with, right?
If you're working with a team member, what kind of support do they need? Different people need different feedback and a different frequency of that feedback, or different types of feedback. Some people are just like, "Head down, let me know what I need to do." Others just want more positive reinforcement on a daily basis. It's being able to shift and look at that, and being flexible in who you are as a leader as well. That's the overview and the main part of that.
The other experience I have really comes down to Emily. We talked about Emily a little bit earlier, but Emily not only has Down syndrome, but she has what's called speech apraxia. In street terms, she would be non-verbal. You'd say she's non-verbal. Communication has become really important in my life personally, and also in my professional life.
Emily does not communicate the way everybody else communicates. When you look at body language and how much communication is really non-verbal, then you're really looking at how and what is this person communicating? How are they communicating, how am I interpreting what they're saying, and how am I responding appropriately to that?
I think just having raised Emily for 29 years, she's actually giving me that skill and that practice on a daily basis.
Eileen Rochford: That's fascinating. I just keep thinking about how did you acquire these skills, and there you just gave me an inside view. I had no idea that that would have been the source for you. That's fascinating.
Kathryn Lavin: There's also this background of the social work aspect, and I think that as us both—and I don't know, Rob, if you even know this—but I am a Reiki Master. So, yeah. Which is all—
Rob Johnson: I didn't know that! I only learned that when I interviewed you for the book, though. Out of all these years I've known you, I did not know that. Then we started talking about interviewing for the book and I was like, "I did not know that."
Kathryn Lavin: So just kind of this whole experience of being a social worker first and foremost, which has this whole background about the theory—you know, social work theory is saying, "Okay, if you make a change on one variable in a system, whether that system is internal, familial, in a couple, or in a team, the whole system changes." When you change a variable within that system, the whole system changes.
You're looking at, you know, are you supporting one particular staff person at a time? That creates change within the system. So there's that social work theory, and then you add this element for me personally about being a Reiki Master, which is all about source, connectivity, our humanity, and more than that, it's about our spirit and our soul, and how we are so connected.
I think that leaders in general are afraid to get into that level about what their employees really need on a human level, right? I think that that's part of that adaptability—just meeting people where they are.
Eileen Rochford: Do you mind if I ask about how you draw upon what you've developed as a Reiki Master in your workplace? Can you think about—not specific examples, but just in general—things that maybe came from there, and how do you use them?
Kathryn Lavin: I think that, again, as a Reiki Master, you know that everybody—there's an energy. It's like the Force, right? I mean, it's like there's energy that, as Yoda says, surrounds us, is in us, and connects us all. I think that each individual has their own energy that they bring to an organization, but the organization has its own energy, right?
It's just cultivating that energy, and ideally in a positive way. Where are people growing? How are they growing? Are they passionate about what they do? That's all part of your soul language. If you're not passionate about what you do, then it's going to be reflected in your day-to-day job performance.
Rob Johnson: Do you bring the energy—I know you bring your energy that you were just talking about—but do you think because you're the leader, you're talking about the organization's energy? The organization has energy because it's helping people that really need help, people with intellectual disabilities. But also, in your own contribution, because you have those values, do you think that your energy—okay, here's Kathy at work—gives the organization a different kind of energy than it normally would have had? Which would have been a good one anyway.
Kathryn Lavin: I do. I mean, I can't separate that from me. It's so innate in who I am. Just like being a mother of an adult daughter with Down syndrome is innate in what I do. I cannot separate that. I think that's part of being an adaptable leader—saying, "Okay, this is my authentic self, right? I have to be true to myself and who I am."
Does it mean I'm perfect? No. Does it mean that I'm flawed? Sure, we all are. We all are human. But absolutely.
It's part of this thing where you do—you know, I wake up every morning and I do a gratitude practice. It's all just part of the whole philosophy around not just Reiki, but around gratitude and blessing things as you come to work, and the staff, and even blessing what I—you know, and asking for support in communicating. What does the staff need to hear today? Am I present? Am I present? Or am I so distracted by so many other things?
You know, you walk down the hallway and people are like—I mean, there are days that I'm walking down the hallway and my head is, not in the clouds, but it's so focused on my to-do list and what I have to do. And so somebody will be like, "Hello!" And I'll be like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry."
To be able to say, "This is me. Sometimes I get so focused that I don't..." But also acknowledging that person needs that eye contact, they need that "hello." I have to be mindful of that. Some people on my team need a "good morning" every day, and some people don't, right? I have to be like, "Okay, get your head out of the to-do list and respond to people. Be present."
Eileen Rochford: I was just about to say, being present—how much of an energetic impact that has on yourself, everyone around you, and then the ultimate organizational energy. Just that thing alone can have such an immense impact.
It's fascinating because I'm also thinking about how we talk so much about culture, and what a significant role leaders play in culture. Now you have me thinking about energy, and that's just an entirely different element of an organization. It's fascinating because nobody owns the energy, right? Everybody owns the energy.
Kathryn Lavin: Everyone co-creates the energy.
Rob Johnson: They create it. Yes, exactly.
Kathryn Lavin: Co-create it. So if someone comes in and they're in a bad mood, right, what happens to the rest of the team? Right? So how do you respond to that? It happened just today. You're like, "Okay, you're having a tough day. Come into my office, take a beat," and ask those questions: "Do you need space? Do you need quiet? Do you need to take a break? What is it that you need, and what can I do to help provide that for you?"
And then people—right, they're strengthened, and then the energy of the organization, of the day, changes, right? And then the organization. So, oh yeah, it is a thing. It is real.
Eileen Rochford: So, we're talking about adaptive leadership and meeting people where they are. Why is this type of leadership so crucial for you and for your entire team at Gateway to Learning? What do you think? Why is it the right one for you guys, Kathy?
Kathryn Lavin: I think that, again, going back to where my origin was in 2018 when I joined the team, right, is coming in at a time when there was such grief. I mean, talk about the energy—there was grief, there was confusion, and there was turmoil. And just being, again, present to what the organization was experiencing as its own being, right? And then saying, you know, "How do I help lead and shape that?" And again, meeting people where they're at.
And so now I'm going to ask you to rephrase that question again because I just lost my train of thought. (Laughs)
Eileen Rochford: (Laughs) That's okay! I was just kind of wondering if it feels like this style is so vital to how you personally lead, and what your organization needs collectively from you. Why do you think that is?
Kathryn Lavin: You know, I don't know. I think so much is about being mindful, being present, and being self-aware of who you are. I think that this is my authentic self. Maybe it's age, I don't know. Maybe it's wisdom, maybe it's, you know, age again! Like I don't really know, but just saying, "Okay, this is what I've learned."
I've observed so many people—different leaders throughout my day in non-profit. I think that adapting qualities of other people and seeing where people are successful has been key. And also seeing where people were not so successful and saying, "You know what? First of all, what they are reflecting in their actions are not what I value." So again, holding true to what I value and my own authenticity, I think, is really key, right? So I think that adds to the mindfulness and the presence of being a leader, particularly for this organization that has gone through so much change in the last eight years.
Rob Johnson: I think you should give yourself a little more credit. You could say, "It might be age or wisdom, but it's probably wisdom." That's how you need to couch that. It's all wisdom, mainly.
Kathryn Lavin: It's all wisdom, yeah. I'm a—am I a crone? No. (Laughs)
Rob Johnson: Well, you know, Kathy, sometimes we hear leaders or even coaches talk about treating everyone the same. "I got to treat everyone the same." But even though you have principles and values for the organization—the ones that you help set, the energy that you bring—you really do have to treat everyone a little differently. I think that's pretty obvious here in this discussion.
Does that ever confuse members of your team? Like, "Well, she didn't treat him like she did her," or vice versa? Does that ever come across, or is everybody well-versed enough in the way that you do things to understand that she has to treat us differently?
Kathryn Lavin: Yeah, I think it's a little of both. I think that one of the things that we value is person-centered supports. So for the people that we support with intellectual disabilities, it's really this philosophy of being person-centered. In general, our program is focused on being person-centered, and everything has to be somewhat individualized, right? So I think they understand that as a whole.
It doesn't mean that things don't come up, right? I think that—it's kind of like what I told my kids when they were little. It would be Saturday morning and they'd be like, "Well, why does Emily not have to do all these chores? Why does she only get one chore and we have to do four chores? I don't understand that." And I'm like, "Look, hold on one second. What's fair is not what's equal."
"What's fair is not what's equal. What's equitable is not what's equal."
It's not. And it's hard to wrap your head around that, I think, certainly when you're six years old or seven years old and you're like, "Well, I got four chores and she's got one chore," you know? It's not, right? Equity is not equal to all things.
So just being mindful of that. And I think that at times I've seen that played here, like in transparency, right? So you'll be like, "Okay, well, I want to be transparent about everything, you know, as much as I can." And then people are like, "Well, you're transparent about this, but how come you're not calling people out on their lack of job performance?" And you say, "Well, how do you know? Or why does some person get to leave early or one person gets to come in late?"
I can't be totally transparent around those things. Those are confidential things. So I think sometimes, particularly when you have a multi-generational staff, some people understand, some people don't understand. I think there's this whole thing around transparency meaning that I should know everything that happens all the time, and that what's fair is not what's equal.
Eileen Rochford: It's so fun when I talk to leaders with Rob on this show, leaders like you, and I just hear so many of the same things that I grapple with myself. It's affirming. It is, it is.
Eileen Rochford: I'm curious, Kathy. Some people listening right now might think, "Well, gosh, that's kind of pushover leadership—this whole being nice here, nice there." I don't think that's the case at all. There has to be times in your position where you have had to be just firm and hold that line. So when do you play that card? When do you find that that's an absolute must for you?
Kathryn Lavin: At the end of the day—I mean, absolutely, there are definitely those moments. I feel like, you know, just don't confuse kindness with weakness, right?
I think that at the end of the day, my biggest priority is the people we support, right? And the organization as a whole. What am I doing that creates the sustainability of the organization, particularly in this day and age, that allows the people we support to get what they need, right? Does it undermine any of the things that we have discussed and adopted as our values and our pillars, right? So that's where I draw the line, right?
Does it put what we believe our values are at risk? We have developed, for example, what's called the "Bridge." We have this visual that the bridge has these pillars, right? And then at the bottom, these concrete pillars, which are our values. These beams, right? And the beams include things like the people we support, the services, our staffing, the facility needs, things like that—the revenue, the expenses.
And then we have these guardrails, like the federal government, the state regulations, accreditation teams, things like that. The question is, are we doing anything, or do my actions do anything, that either put the pillars at risk or the beams of the bridge at risk?
So for me, that's like the hard stop, right? Like, it's like, don't think that I'm a pushover just because I'm meeting you where you are, right? Because at the end of the day, I am held accountable to my biggest stakeholder, which is the people we support and the organization. So, yeah, that's part of it.
Eileen Rochford: That's a great way to put it. And that just reinforces why going through the effort of establishing all of those elements that you just described in your leadership team, and gaining agreement across your organization, is so helpful to every leader—to have that thing to look back on and say, "No, we stand for this, and we have to uphold these things. And if we don't, everything could be in jeopardy, and we will not do that." That's amazing. Thanks for reinforcing that. I'm really happy to hear that that's how you do it, and it's a perfect point of view.
Kathryn Lavin: Thank you. And I think, too, that the staff themselves, the employees, become stronger in this way of being, right? The beams on the bridge become stronger because they are being heard, they are being listened to, they are being validated, right?
And those beams are becoming stronger. In the eight years I've been here, we've gone from like a $1.05 million organization to $2.4 million, right? And that's just in eight years. We've gone from 80 families to 150 families and growing.
And then just last week, Friday, we were re-accredited by this Council on Quality and Leadership. I mean, we're really making great strides. So it's not like saying, "Oh, you know, again, don't confuse kindness with weakness," right?
Eileen Rochford: Yeah! I love that. My sister is a social worker—she has her LCSW—but she actually works for the National Alliance on Mental Illness. So I know how hard that accreditation process is and how valuable and meaningful it is because she's shared it with me. That's amazing, Kathy. Well done.
Kathryn Lavin: Thank you. Thank you, yes.
Rob Johnson: Not easy. And we were having our prep meetings during that and I was like, "You sure you don't want to push this?" She was like, "I got this," and you did.
You just painted such a beautiful metaphorical picture about construction and building beams and things of that nature. So I'm not sure you can top it, but I bet you can. Before we go, do you have any final wisdom? Anything we didn't get to that you'd like to leave our listeners with today?
Kathryn Lavin: Specifically around adaptive leadership, I think it's really important to incorporate those ideals of mindfulness and intention, right? You're kind of called to be flexible at these times when you're meeting people where they're at, but you also have to set intention and you have to be mindful of your actions, both on a macro level and a micro level. Just keeping that in mind is really key.
I also think that, don't be afraid to be vulnerable. I think that's really key—to show your humanity, like we talked about earlier. In fact, right after Rockability, Rob, the next day we had a team-building day, and so we went to do karaoke for the first time. (Laughs) And they're all like, "Well, guess who's going to start karaoke?"
And I was like, "Okay, here we are, right?" Like, I know if I'm not doing it, no one's going to get up there. So it's either that or it'll be like pulling teeth, and I'm like, "Okay, so I'm throwing it out there." Yes.
Eileen Rochford: So what was your song? What was your song? (Laughs)
Kathryn Lavin: Uh, it was Black Velvet.
Rob Johnson: Alright!
Kathryn Lavin: Yeah! We won't make you sing a few bars right now. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, that's for a karaoke moment. Different environment, yeah.
Eileen Rochford: Go for you! That's—
Kathryn Lavin: Yeah, thank you. And I think at the end of the day, just being able to remember to give yourself grace, right? I think that's so imperative, circling back to that Reiki practice, right? Grace is so needed. Self-compassion and grace—you're human too.
Eileen Rochford: Nice. Amen is right. Well done. I love this. This has been a great conversation.
So, Kathryn Lavin, CEO of Gateway to Learning and chapter eight of Rob's book, Overcommunicate—thank you. We really appreciate you joining us today. It's been a great conversation.
Kathryn Lavin: Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it.
Eileen Rochford: Yay! I just—the whole Reiki Master thing, mind blown. Just, wow. You've given me so much to think about. Yeah, yeah. That was fabulous. Thank you. I'm like, wow, pursuing that kind of energetic work as a leader of an organization—I've always been interested in it, but never thought, wow, this could have great applications to so many components of your life. That's great.
Okay, so thank you—
Kathryn Lavin: Well, we can talk about it another time.
Eileen Rochford: I think we will! Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm taking you up on that. Thank you very much.
Okay, everybody, thank you for listening. I'm Eileen Rochford. If you would like to comment on the podcast or suggest a topic, which we absolutely love, please contact us. You can reach us on the Can You Hear Me? page on LinkedIn that we have, as well as check out our newsletter, because it's a really good newsletter and it's gaining a lot of steam, and lots of people are subscribing. So we welcome you to do that too, and you can find that on our LinkedIn page as well.
And anything else we want to tell our folks before we go, Rob?
Rob Johnson: Just anything you've heard, we'll leave it in the show notes. That's it.
Eileen Rochford: Yes! We always have great show notes. So we'll even leave instructions on how to become a Reiki Master. (Laughs)
Rob Johnson: There you go! Everything you wanted to know about Reiki Masters.
Thank you for joining us, I'm Rob Johnson. We're going to include Kathy's information and Overcommunicate info in the show notes as well. Overcommunicate is available on Amazon. You can get the eBook, paperback, hardback, so it's very easy to purchase. And if you read it, please give it a review.
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