Can You Hear Me?

Mastering the Art of Negotiation

Episode Summary

Being an effective and shrewd negotiator takes time and intent. A lot of strategy and preparation is involved when it comes to walking away from the negotiation table with the deal you want. Join “Can You Hear Me?” co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford as they welcome Family Law expert and negotiator extraordinaire Meighan Harmon to discuss “Mastering the Art of Negotiation.”

Episode Notes

Meighan Harmon Repeats History and is Voted by Her Peers as Best Lawyers “Lawyer of the Year” Award in Family Law for the Second Time


 

About Meighan Harmon

Education

University of Notre Dame, J.D. (1996)

University of Illinois, B.S. (1993)


 

Meighan Harmon focuses her practice on complex family law cases involving the distribution of high net worth estates and represents successful business professionals and their spouses from a variety of industries, as well as individuals with multi-generational wealth.


 

Meighan is a versatile attorney who provides her clients a wide range of options for resolving their disputes. She is an experienced litigator who can be fierce in the courtroom, but she is also a trained collaborative lawyer and a family law mediator who can devise creative solutions and amicably settle even the toughest of cases. No two divorces are the same, and Meighan possesses the skills necessary to provide the right solution for each unique situation with the ability to pivot between ADR and litigation when necessary.


 

Not only does Meighan assist her clients in dissolving their marriages, but she also encourages them to be future focused. She believes divorce offers clients a unique opportunity to build a positive future for themselves, complete with financial and emotional security. To this end, she provides her clients with the tools necessary to help them construct a solid foundation on which to navigate their new lives.  For Meighan’s clients, divorce can be a spring board to reinventing themselves.


 

Meighan is part of an elite group of leaders in family law and has been included in the Top 100 Lawyers in Illinois (all practice areas) since 2017. In 2011, she was elected by her peers to be President of the Illinois Chapter of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers. Beginning in 2022, Meighan earned international recognition by Chambers and Partners USA, which ranked her in the top tier (Band 1) for Family/Matrimonial Law: High Net Worth. Super Lawyers also named Meighan as one of the Top 50 Women Lawyers in Illinois each year since 2016. In 2021, Meighan was named a "Lawyer of the Year" in Family Law by The Best Lawyers in America. She has been recognized by the Leading Lawyers Network and Illinois Super Lawyers since 2006. 


 

A frequent lecturer on family law topics, she is also a published author, having assisted in the researching and drafting of the book Problems in Family Law.

Episode Transcription

Rob Johnson: [00:00:19] Hello again, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Can You Hear Me? Podcast. I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications. [00:00:26][6.4]

Eileen Rochford: [00:00:27] And I'm Eileen Rochford CEO The Harbinger Group, a marketing and strategy firm here on can you hear me? We try to equip you with practical concepts and ideas to help you be superior communicators and professionals. For many of us in leadership positions. Being an effective negotiator is an absolute must. To secure the deal terms you want, deep strategy and thoughtful preparation are always involved and carefully considered communication is a must for successful negotiations. So today we have someone who is extremely well versed in this area. Meighan Harmon is managing partner at Schiller DuCanto & Fleck where she practices family law. Now, I want to point out something that's extremely impressive about meighan. It was recently named the 2025 Lawyer of the Year for Family Law by the Best Lawyers in America. This is an honor that meighan has achieved twice in her career. meighan also frequently posts highly engaging and insightful content on LinkedIn about strategies and tactics for successful negotiation, which is why we have invited her here today to be our guest on can you hear me? meighan, welcome to the show. Thank you for being with us today. [00:01:38][71.6]

Meighan Harmon: [00:01:39] Thanks so much. I appreciate the opportunity to be here and talk to you guys. This is fun. [00:01:43][4.2]

Rob Johnson: [00:01:43] This is going to be a lot of fun. Absolutely. And we appreciate you taking the time because this is such an important factor when it comes to being. You know, one of the things, one of the boxes you have to check when you're going to be a successful businessperson. So let's start with this, meighan, before we wade into the negotiation waters with you, why don't you share us a little bit about your background and your origin story, how you got to where you are today? [00:02:08][24.4]

Meighan Harmon: [00:02:08] Sure. [00:02:08][0.0]

Meighan Harmon: [00:02:09] I grew up kind of all over the place. My father was an active duty military member until I was out of law school, so I don't really have a hometown but ended up settling in the Midwest. Ultimately, my mom was from Illinois, so it was kind of an obvious choice. I have been practicing exclusively family law since I graduated from law school in 1996, primarily representing high net worth clients and all different kinds of family law disputes, which primarily means divorce cases, although we do also deal with things like prenuptial agreements and post-doctoral agreements and how family law sort of interplays with other areas of law like real estate and guardianship and that kind of thing. But the majority of my time these days is spent actively negotiating on behalf of clients. There's been a shift in family law practice since I've been practicing a very positive shift, in my view, from litigation to more ADR or alternative dispute resolution models, including mediation. So that's where I spent a lot of my time these days, gratefully. [00:03:17][67.6]

Eileen Rochford: [00:03:17] Yeah. I'm curious. Could you venture a guess at how many negotiations you have been a part of in your career? [00:03:25][7.3]

Meighan Harmon: [00:03:25] Would I? Does that include my 19 year old daughter or just not parenting? [00:03:30][4.5]

Rob Johnson: [00:03:31] No successful negotiation. [00:03:32][1.3]

Eileen Rochford: [00:03:33] To the moon and back. Yeah. [00:03:34][1.2]

Meighan Harmon: [00:03:36] You know, and at any given time, I have between 35 and 50 active cases. We like to try to get our clients out of our process as efficiently as we can. So multiply that by almost 30 years. That's a lot. [00:03:51][14.8]

Eileen Rochford: [00:03:51] Yeah. That is really impressive. And also, just want to point out, since you mentioned your 19 year old daughter who's totally adorable, I hope she's great. meighan, I know each other because originally we were introduced, our daughters were in school together at Sacred Heart. So one little connection there. Personal connection. That's right. They were tough negotiators then, and they still are today. Yeah. You know. [00:04:16][24.4]

Rob Johnson: [00:04:16] I have a quick question, too. You mentioned it, that it's gotten away from litigation and more toward mediation to what you ascribe that change in and tactics, I guess what's driven it? [00:04:28][11.7]

Rob Johnson: [00:04:28] I think more than anything else, honestly, people, individuals becoming more educated, consumers of legal services. You know, the the Internet has given people a lot more access to information and they tend to learn more about the process before they enter into it. And they are at least somewhat familiar with the alternatives to traditional litigation now. And I think it's a very, very positive development. [00:04:57][29.4]

Eileen Rochford: [00:04:58] Yeah, I would agree. It would seem, especially if it can expedite situations that really, you know, pull families apart. Exactly. A positive thing for sure. Okay. So obviously, you just cited I can't even do the math how many negotiations you've been a part of. That's a lot. You likely have been at the table. Or for some very contentious negotiation situations. So we're curious to hear your expert advice. How do you approach the situation when you know it's getting contentious or you expect it to be extremely contentious? What's different about those situations? [00:05:33][34.9]

Meighan Harmon: [00:05:33] Well, you know, in in the family law world, most negotiations about some aspect of the case, maybe not every aspect of the case, but some aspect of the case or is content is going to be contentious. And so you go in I go in to most of these negotiations, assuming there's going to be contentious parts at a minimum. And I think the key to a successful negotiation is to go in with a high level of confidence, both you, both me as the lawyer and the client that I'm representing need to feel a high level of confidence. And to me, the the starting place is to be extraordinarily prepared and have a very high level of preparation, a command of the facts and command of the issues in the case, but also really have spent time have spent time thinking through how the other players were going to kind of show up in the room. We tend to mediate a lot with the same highly trained and skilled mediators. And so I sort of know what to expect from the mediator. And if I'm using a mediator I haven't used before, I try to spend some time getting to know them and understanding their process, but also understanding the opposing party, how they're going to show up, the opposing lawyer and really even my own client understanding what the dynamic is between the individuals that are going to be the ultimate decision makers before you walk into the room is important and making sure your client feels prepared and is prepared and feels prepared are not always the same thing. And so you have to keep keep at it with preparation until your client feels prepared. [00:07:06][93.1]

Eileen Rochford: [00:07:07] And I'm curious. I don't think we're jumping the gun here. So if I may interject with a question, is when you say preparation, because I definitely want to delve more into that. Is it is it part of that understanding, the goal and what you're willing to give away and what you're willing to take back? Those kinds of things. What's the exercise that you go through to establish that this is these are the essentials that we will not settle on. These are the things that will give on how you do that. [00:07:37][29.2]

Meighan Harmon: [00:07:37] Well, we have the guidance of the court and the statute and the law and what are realistic outcomes. And going in knowing where you're trying to get is essential and making sure you go in with your client. Understanding where you're likely to be able to get is also very, very important. You know, in a mediated setting, you can be creative. You can negotiate around things that are important to you that a court's not necessarily going to deal with. And that can be helpful to kind of get people unstuck. If people can both get things they can't get in a courtroom. It can help bridge gaps. But understanding the facts and the law as they apply to our particular case obviously is really important. But also making sure your client understands what the range of outcomes actually are. [00:08:28][51.2]

Meighan Harmon: [00:08:29] Thank you. [00:08:29][0.2]

Rob Johnson: [00:08:29] You just you just brought something up a second ago right before that, talking about understanding the types of people on the other side of the table and how they might show up in a negotiation. And you give us like an example of what that means in practicality, in terms of how you would respond to somebody based on, okay, I need to know what how everybody's perhaps going to react, but what is that? What does that do? What does that do for you? [00:08:51][22.2]

Meighan Harmon: [00:08:52] It's a great question. So, you know, there are different sort of archetypes or types of people and how they show up in a mediation and different theorists have different sort of names and labels for the different the different types of, of styles of negotiation. But I think that they fall into three categories essentially. There's assertive which could also be called the bully or could be also called the charmer, but the assertive person who wants to come in and sort of run everything and and be in charge of the process. Then there is the analyst. What you would maybe kind of think of is the paralysis by analysis person who has a really hard time processing information with speed and making decisions. And then there's the accommodator for the person who just wants to make a deal and get the heck out of there. And so understanding, you know, if you if you're negotiating against an accommodate or fabulous, although they often have buyer's remorse and will undo a deal that they've made in the room, if they're just doing it to get out of the room as quickly as they can. But the knowing, you know, if you have someone on the other side or if you have a client who is extraordinarily, extraordinarily high on the assertive scale, i.e. the bully thinking of thinking through preparing your client for how you're going to react to that behavior, and also thinking of ways to structure a negotiation so that. Your client isn't forced to deal with the bully head on, but you can shuttle perhaps back and forth between the two sides to give the non bully or the non assertive type and then with the analyst, they need a lot of time. They need a lot of preparation. And when I said before, the thing about a client is to not just be prepared, but feel prepared. An analyst really needs a lot of time in order to feel prepared, but they're not going to make a deal until they do. And so sometimes with an analyst, we want to break the mediation sessions into smaller sessions and smaller chunks so that they have time to process in between. So getting to know your own client, but also getting to know what's going to what's coming in on the other side so that you can think about how best to structure of the mediation for for the best outcomes important. [00:11:06][133.6]

Meighan Harmon: [00:11:07] And do you find that there people you're dealing with, are there kind of everyday personalities or the same personalities that they bring into that negotiation room Typically? [00:11:16][8.7]

Meighan Harmon: [00:11:16] Pretty much, yeah. I mean, the challenges that a couple has in the negotiation of their divorce are going to be pretty much the dynamics that they had that led to the divorce in the first instance. They don't they don't change their personality or metamorphoses into other other people prior to the mediation process. [00:11:34][18.1]

Meighan Harmon: [00:11:35] Interesting. [00:11:35][0.0]

Rob Johnson: [00:11:36] You touched on a little bit. What is let me about about being across the table from somebody. What would you say? Let's let's use superlatives. What's the best person, best personality to be representing? What's the best personality to be up against of the three you just mentioned? [00:11:49][13.5]

Meighan Harmon: [00:11:50] Well, you know, accommodating accommodate or is or it is easy to settle cases with if the deal sticks the problem in representing and accommodate or is to make sure they don't end up agreeing to something that they're later going to going to ultimately regret because you're going to be held accountable for it. No, no, no question. So, you know, accommodate or seem sort of easy to work with and and accommodating. That's why they're called that. But you've got to really worry about the buyer's remorse and make sure that they are they're hearing the advice and they're making educated decisions as opposed to emotional decisions, sometimes slowing the process down and and sort of playing the tape out in terms we'll hear here are the consequences of the compromise you're you're contemplating making and doing some of that work before you even get into the mediation. You know, if you agree to this, then this can be helpful. There are a lot of accommodations out there to be there. They exist, but there aren't a lot of them. There aren't a lot of them out there. [00:12:56][66.5]

Meighan Harmon: [00:12:57] It's just crazy personal share. My my parents got divorced and after 35 years or something like a long time and I was in college and my dad is he was a very hard charging individual like, this is super. I would have thought that he would have been that kind of I'm owning the room kind of negotiator, but that is absolutely not what happened. He just said to his lawyer, give her whatever she wants. I know. All right. So there were repercussions for that, no doubt. But there were also things that he just couldn't change because of the law, as you mentioned. Right. But that's funny now, because I think that may be why I ask the question, like, is that how people enter the actual mediation? Is that the personality that shows up? Because I wouldn't have expected that. [00:13:43][45.8]

Meighan Harmon: [00:13:43] But I yes, sometimes there are really good business reasons that an assertive person shows up. But as a as an accommodate or, you know, they may be looking at a longer game and want to stop the bleeding sooner rather than later. They may see more opportunity in their future and they want to move on quickly. [00:14:00][16.8]

Meighan Harmon: [00:14:01] Interesting. Well, that's good to hear. Thank you. I can ask about poor guy. He just got taken to the cleaners, as they used to say. Absolutely. Okay. So they. [00:14:11][10.4]

Meighan Harmon: [00:14:12] Still say. They still say that? [00:14:13][1.0]

Meighan Harmon: [00:14:13] I don't think so. I don't feel that. I just said something today and in a meeting and I'm not kidding. One of the people who was probably under 30 was like, what does that mean? So like, I'm all like I say, you got to make a joke of it. So emotions probably run really high, I would imagine, in different ways. And they come out at moments that probably even the individual didn't expect in these environments that you're in and families are separating, how are you able to maintain your own composure? But then also, how do you counsel your clients? Here's how we're going to work through this. When you feel yourself getting really angry or upset because we got to keep your cool here. Yeah, sure. What's the counsel that you give and how do you do that for yourself? [00:14:58][45.2]

Meighan Harmon: [00:14:58] Well, you know, in in in the world of negotiating around the the end of a marriage, it is emotional. And I think that, you know, giving people permission and setting the expectation that they're going to have moments where they feel intense emotion and they have to they have to expect that. And. Giving them permission to feel those feelings and take a break and take a minute. It's interesting because we've all had those moments where we feel overcome with emotion and we're really putting a lot of energy into not crying. Right. Because it's not the time or the not the place. You know, there's no crying in baseball. It is really impossible for a person to also be thinking and processing information while they're trying not to cry. So when I see whether it's my client or even on the other side, when I see someone who's very obviously holding back tears and really trying to contain themselves or they're, you know, they're flushed, they're clearly angry, they're about to blow. You just got to take a break because that person is not in the room, so to speak. They're having kind of an out-of-body experience. And, you know, getting through the process as efficiently as you can is an important thing to do. You know, you're sitting there with a bunch of professionals that are probably billing in six minute increments, but you also have to you have to give them the space to sort of get get present again. And for my son, you know, I'm human and I get triggered. And sometimes people say things that really aggravate me and sometimes I become the target. The lawyers become the target of the other person's ire. The other party's trying to split your client from you and all of the things that that could potentially happen in negotiation. I find two things. Number one, taking breaks and letting people go and decompress. Even five minutes can make a huge difference. And if for whatever reason, somebody just can't pull it back together that day, you've got to call it in and come back again another day. For me personally, I find if I start to get mad in a mediation, if someone's really sort of getting under my skin, I try to make myself say, Well, that's interesting. Why is that person trying to get under my skin? How are they effectively getting under my skin? And I try to like intellectually understand it. And if I can get into that mindset, the anger will sort of it will dissipate and, you know, just kind of staying curious as opposed to getting sucked into the dynamic is the way I try to personally management, not always successfully, but I do my best. I was born a red head, so I have to give my heart a little grace. [00:17:39][161.0]

Meighan Harmon: [00:17:41] But that's a great strategy. That is really good to kind of. You said they're having an out-of-body experience. It's almost like you're forcing yourself to have one. All right. Let me just look down on this from above and kind of dig under it a little bit, that curiosity. [00:17:53][12.1]

Rob Johnson: [00:17:54] And I thought it was interesting that you said that whether it's your client or the person across the table from you, if you see somebody being triggered, that it behooves everybody to maybe disconnect for a minute, take a little break, do that sort of thing, because you might think, hey, I'm really getting under their skin. Hey, we're we're we're going on the offensive here. We're getting, you know, we're going to get the deal we want or whatever. But you said that it's not helpful to anybody at the table. [00:18:18][24.0]

Meighan Harmon: [00:18:18] No. And, you know, it's interesting because in a sort of a traditional conference room mediation, I may have more visibility to the other party than I have to my own client. If I'm sitting next to my client and I'm looking across the table at the other side so I may notice it or see it coming before their own lawyer does. We do a lot of these negotiations on Zoom these days, and so you have everybody's space right in your face. And so, you know, you can't quite pick up on the same amount of body language over Zoom, but it does sort of help a little bit with everybody is face to face on Zoom as opposed to being in a room. You know, mediators love roundtables, but somehow nobody has one. So, you know, it's you sometimes do see it on the other side before you can realize your own client is is unraveling for whatever reason. [00:19:08][49.2]

Rob Johnson: [00:19:08] So let me ask you this. You know, we're a communications centric podcast here. Can you hear me? And what you do requires high level communication. You talked about it in many different ways so far. meighan, what is what do you think the overarching role of communications is in achieving these successful outcomes that you get? [00:19:27][18.9]

Meighan Harmon: [00:19:28] Well, you know, I think that how you say yes and how you say no matters, you know, and there's some yeses and some no's typically in any negotiation or sometimes there's a maybe and it's not necessarily just the ultimate answer, but how you say it saying no in a way that makes somebody feel heard, repeating back to them all the things they said about why they wanted something so that they know that you heard it, they said, and understand why they're asking for what they're asking for is different than just a straight up no. And the same is true with. Yes. You know, in negotiation. A yes is a yes. That's great. But if it's a yes but or if it's a yes, But I want you to understand that I see this as a huge concession on my part, and I want you to take this in consideration when we're going negotiating the next bit. That's a different thing than just a yes. And I think both of those both of those examples are ways that the way that you communicate it, the way you communicate back and forth in the middle did, as you know, it's not mechanical. And you know, there's there are often times in our negotiations things that people want to express and say that have nothing to do at all with the outcome. One of the obvious ones in Illinois, we're no fault state, obviously, And sometimes people want to go deep on the reason for the breakdown of the marriage. That isn't going to have an impact on the financial outcome. But they need to have that conversation and they're not going to really get past wanting to talk about that until you give them the opportunity to do it. And, you know, sometimes when I have clients who are on the receiving end of this, they say, well, why do I have to sit and listen to that? Doesn't matter. Nobody cares. The judge isn't going to care. It's a no fault date. And I said, okay, well, all of that is true. But if you want to get to a negotiated agreement, you're going to have to sit and listen to it because we can't get past it otherwise. So, you know, there's there are there's a lot of different ways that how you communicate what's what's being negotiated back and forth is really important in what I do. [00:21:29][121.5]

Meighan Harmon: [00:21:30] I can see so many applications to even client contract negotiations and concessions. And yes, we absorb that costs great. Well then we'll do that. But us taking the moment to say more than just yes, kind of lays the groundwork for our client to understand on the next bit when when we want to ask for something that they might be kind of wobbling on to say, great, we're going to do this, will absorb this cost, for example. But when this next item comes up, I want you to remember this because there are a few things that are really important to us too, that we'd like you to take very seriously in this conversation and in learning that not just my direct line of work, but I bet lots of people listening here that you've made a very important point always let them have their say. They kind of get it off their chest, which emotionally opens up the opportunity for resolution and everyone kind of get into the place where they want to be. That's great. Very important. I love it when we do these things that are just so. Okay. So I'm curious because we're getting to the point where we're, you know, we're wrapping up the show. Has there been a situation in your team, the number of negotiations that you've been a part of where you used an unconventional approach that helped you get to the outcome and maybe you were like, whoa, I wasn't sure I was going to work this unconventional approach. That's one of the things that I'm I'm sure we'll learn something. [00:23:06][95.6]

Meighan Harmon: [00:23:06] So there's two things that come to mind. I'm always looking for the opportunity to encourage a client to make an offer. They would take either side of. I think packaging a deal such that you would take either side of the deal is a pretty powerful, powerful negotiation strategy because it it leaves you with the result that you can live with either way, but it also gives the other side the choice and the agency to to make the ultimate decision. So if you have an opportunity to do that in any deal and put together something that you could take either side of, it can be a pretty a pretty powerful, a pretty powerful technique. Another technique that I've used, frankly, in the past more out of desperation, you know, with the long day, particularly to the extent I have a client that I'm not able to to get through to, is I, you know, try to reset and say, okay, I'm just going to ask you for a minute to just wipe the slate clean and I'm going to ask you to pretend that you are the other side. I'm going to ask you to pretend that you're your wife. I'm going to ask you to pretend that you don't have a job, that you don't have a career, and that you've spent the last 30 years at home raising kids who are now gone. And I'm going to think about the estate that you have, the money, you have what you're able to earn, how much longer you're going to be able to work. Now I'm going to ask you to put yourself in your spouse's shoes and think about what you would want. What would you want in order to feel safe and comfortable and to get through this process. And, you know, sometimes it's trying to put yourself in the other person's shoes and try to think about like if you were going to put together a package of of terms that you could live with if you were in her exact situation or you were in his exact situation, that can actually be a pretty helpful. And, you know, sometimes it's pretend she's your sister or pretend he's your brother or pretend he's your son or pretend he's your daughter and he's in a similarly situated situation. What would you want? What would you be asking for is is what this person is on the other side needs to feel like they can make a deal really all that unreasonable if you look at it. From their perspective, that can be very helpful. You know, you have to have a client who's not, you know, in a fit of pique and is willing to sort of sit and work through thinking about, well, what does that look like and how does that feel? It can be it can be very helpful to ask them to just take a step back and kind of walk up just a block in the other person's shoes in order to start to conceptualize what is life look like for the other side post transaction or post deal. You want to always want to do it. But if I can get them to engage at least a little bit, I can. I can typically get some movement out of either a client of my own that's been a little bit recalcitrant or stuck or maybe even close it to the other side. Put yourself in this person's shoes. And what would you what would make you feel like you could you could make a deal today. [00:26:08][182.1]

Rob Johnson: [00:26:09] And if you're one of those rare accommodations, that's probably the easiest way to get through to them because you're challenging them to think beyond what their needs are, what the other person's needs are. [00:26:19][10.2]

Meighan Harmon: [00:26:19] Yeah, 100%. I mean, with the commentators, you're basically trying to keep them from giving up the store because they're going to want, you know, they're going to regret it later. But but yeah, I mean, an analyst can be really good at trying to put themselves in the other person's shoes and think about all the data from that perspective. It can be helpful. It'd be really. [00:26:37][17.5]

Meighan Harmon: [00:26:37] Helpful. Yeah, that's a great closing thoughts? No question. Excellent. Excellent approach. I can see using that in a lot of applications. Role playing know as a marketing agency. Our team. All right. Let's think about what our clients wants needs are. How what are they going to be asking for? How are we going to focus them? Good strategy. Yeah, the whole role playing essentially to a degree, 100%. [00:27:02][24.9]

Meighan Harmon: [00:27:03] As much as much as we all hate those words. [00:27:05][2.3]

Meighan Harmon: [00:27:06] Yeah, I know. [00:27:06][0.3]

Rob Johnson: [00:27:07] Very analogous, though, to what it to your point, Eileen, because we're sitting here talking about Meghan and all of her experience in negotiation and family law. But the purpose of this whole thing is to have businesspeople be thinking, how can I apply that or those concepts to what I do? I'm not a family lawyer. Meghan's a family lawyer. A lot of us aren't. And so that's the challenge. How do we implement these things in the regular course of business? So you've given us a lot to think about. [00:27:33][26.0]

Meighan Harmon: [00:27:34] Definitely. Are there any words you should never use in negotiation and just in general? [00:27:37][3.6]

Meighan Harmon: [00:27:38] Always, never, never absolutes? [00:27:40][1.9]

Meighan Harmon: [00:27:42] Yeah. And I think that, you know, you have to I'm an advocate in the courtroom and I have to retrain my brain to not say things, not use a lot of adjectives and adverbs, but really just kind of stick to the straight, the straight language and to try to kind of de-escalate as opposed to really, really be try to be overly aggressive or persuasive in a mediation, it doesn't help particularly. [00:28:07][24.4]

Meighan Harmon: [00:28:08] That's great. Okay. Excellent. Closing thought. Thank you. We're both so grateful to you for giving us your time and sharing your insights with our listeners here. And I appreciate you being with us tonight. [00:28:20][12.2]

Meighan Harmon: [00:28:20] This was lots of fun, guys. Thanks. [00:28:21][1.2]

Meighan Harmon: [00:28:22] Yeah. [00:28:22][0.0]

Rob Johnson: [00:28:23] Just so many excellent things to think about and thanks for sharing your time with us. That was wonderful. So that and on that note, it's going to do it for another edition of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson. If you'd like to comment on the podcast or suggest a topic, please contact us at our Can You Hear Me podcast page, which you can find on LinkedIn. [00:28:42][19.2]

Eileen Rochford: [00:28:43] And I'm Eileen Rochford. If you like this show, I ask you from the bottom of my heart to please consider giving our show a review, because the more reviews that we get, the more people can find out about us. You help everybody find a great show and we thank you all for listening and thanks for being with us today. [00:28:43][0.0]

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