Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, or DEI, has entered the consciousness of just about every C-Suite in America. But how do you do it, and more importantly how do you do it right? If you are an opportunist of DEI, but have nothing to back it up, how will that hurt your brand? Are your words followed by action, opportunity, and investment to ensure that a diverse pool of talent will take a seat at your decision-making table and succeed? And how will you ensure that those from underrepresented communities are not just on your team, but are able to make making meaningful contributions to your team? Join “Can You Hear Me” co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford as they welcome special guest Leo Harmon of Mesirow Financial, the Senior Managing Director of Equity Management, and Chairman of the firm’s DEI Council as they discuss the importance of having DEI as a cornerstone of your organization, and how it will drive growth, revenue, retention, and talent acquisition.
Leo Harmon shares his top resource materials with our listeners (50:20):
I'd like to share a couple of good books that I've read this year that deal with the structure of inequity and how it has a real deleterious impact on society. One would be Caste by Isabel Wilkerson. There's another book called The Sum of Us by Heather McGhee which really talks about how zero-sum outcomes in society really bring everyone down. And if we can expand the pie, we can have a much more prosperous society. One of the books I've read from one of our consultants, Andres Tapia, The Five Disciplines of Inclusive Leaders, has been really instructive in helping with my thought process. Andres has been a thought leader in this space for a long time and does a lot of good work.
And then there are lots of websites that are just chock full of data around a lot of these items. So the Society for Human Resource Management, Korn Ferry, McKinsey has done a ton of work around DEI initiatives. As well as Boston Consulting. You know, all of those folks have done a good job. And so if you, if you truly value this work and think it can be valuable to your organization, those would be some of the action items I would leave with you in order to better increase your framework and your thought process around these initiatives.
Rob Johnson (00:08):
Welcome to episode three of the Can You Hear Me? podcast. I'm Rob Johnson, former Chicago TV news anchor, and now president of communications consulting firm, Rob Johnson Communications,
Eileen Rochford (00:24):
And I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of marketing strategy and public relations firm, The Harbinger Group. As we continue our podcast series, Can You Hear Me? we wanted to discuss one of the hot button issues in corporate America today: diversity, equity, and inclusion, or DEI, and how it is communicated to individual firms and the public as a whole, and why it is important that as a company, you have a clear, concise, cohesive message about it.
Rob Johnson (00:51):
And in a few moments, we're going to be joined by Leo Harmon of Chicago-based Mesirow Financial. He's the senior managing director of Mesirow's equity management. And more importantly, for today's discussion, he's chairman of Mesirow's DEI council. It was formally created at the firm just over a year ago in the wake of the murder of George Floyd. And since then, he has been tasked with identifying areas of improvement and making sure those policies are implemented.
Eileen Rochford (01:18):
But before we welcome Leo, we want to define the terms diversity, equity, and inclusion, as they relate to our discussion today. Diversity is the presence of differences within a given setting. Equity is the process of ensuring that processes and programs are impartial,. fair, and provide equal possible outcomes for every individual Inclusion is the practice of ensuring that people feel a sense of belonging in the workplace.
Rob Johnson (01:45):
So let's join Leo now. Leo, thanks for joining us on the, Can You Hear Me? podcast. We appreciate you jumping on!
Leo Harmon (01:52):
Hey Rob and Eileen. Thank you for having me today. It is a pleasure to be with you both.
Rob Johnson (01:57):
Okay. As a matter of full disclosure, a little housekeeping here, I want to let people know I do consulting work for Mesirow and have worked with Leo a fair amount, but I have not worked on the DEI council issues. But as we begin here, I mentioned when and why the DEI council was created at Mesirow. Why don't you give us an idea of what you're doing specifically at Mesirow regarding DEI initiatives and why the firm went all in on this?
Leo Harmon (02:24):
Yeah, I think you guys gave it a pretty good setup. A lot of our efforts within DEI predate the DEI council, although tagged as such. I think like a lot of companies, we spent a lot of time focused on the D part of DEI, looking at diversity, and less so on equity and inclusion. And as we look back in retrospect, I think that the murdering of George Floyd really galvanized our firm and created a sense of urgency around not just having diversity initiatives, but also including those other pieces of equity and inclusion. At Mesirow, we have three different divisions and 14 different business units, each of which operate with some level of autonomy. And, you know, that entrepreneurial framework is a real strength of our company.
Leo Harmon (03:32):
But also, can create some inconsistencies at times. And our group was purposely tasked with assisting our leadership and creating a framework of DEI that is more institutional across the entire firm, so that we can all communicate in the same language, so that we could start to address and evaluate policies and practices so we can change roles and structures where necessary. And then effectively try to build a system of accountability across the firm. A lot of folks hear me talk in our meetings about being sustainable and substantial. And I think what we really wanted to do was create a framework that made DEI really a part of our firm's DNA, something as automatic as breathing. And so as we think about this going forward, it's not, it becomes more of a, a first reaction and an initial reaction and not something that's an afterthought in our process.
Eileen Rochford (04:37):
So Leo, tell us, how does a company get from we're going to do better to specific actions that will produce intended results-- meaning actionable results, like walking-the-walk, not just talking-the-talk. How do you do that? Like, where do you start and how do you get there?
Leo Harmon (04:53):
I think you have to look in a mirror and really be honest with yourself, first of all. You have to figure out, you know, what is it that I'm doing right? And where are my shortfalls? Where are my shortcomings and how can I create policies, processes, actions that will help me bridge those shortcomings? And so, if you have an organization like ours, that's really intent on driving better diversity and inclusion and equitable outcomes the question becomes why aren't you seeing those results? What's, what's creating that, that, that dissonance? And so in order to do that, I think you need data to start. You need to find out what you're doing, who's sticking around, what's your hiring practices? You need input from your colleagues about how they feel and what to drive in your needs.
Leo Harmon (05:50):
And then you also need benchmarks to really help engage you, as to, you know, which folks or group of folks, or have best practices? And which don't? I think the second piece is you also need a deliberate strategy. And you have to set it up so that you, you, you want to get from point A to point B. Whatever that goal is at point B, you have to put a deliberate strategy in place to do that. And I think lastly, you need two things. One is you really need input from your leadership. I think at Mesirow, we're very fortunate to have leaders that have been really dedicated and supportive of our efforts. And so when we look at Richard Price and Natalie Brown, our CEO and our president, they've both been great at driving and helping to support these initiatives through our organization. And I think the other thing you need is a why? You know, why are we doing these things? What is the, the business argument, you know, how does DEI fit into our goals and our objectives, and how is it vital to our business strategy? And I think you need all of those things to, to really start to drive the conversation and the action forward.
Rob Johnson (07:10):
So, Leo, you talked about data and you talked about ways of managing or identifying, you know, progress. But, so this dovetails off that a little bit. How can a place like Mesirow determine if they're doing the right things beyond the data, and if they're doing enough? In other words, how is progress measured? And what are the key impediments to the progress? Accountability structures, to make sure that people are aligned to deliver on these initiatives. I know there's a few things to unpack there, but I'm just looking for what you can do to measure that progress and what the impediments to progress are, in that case.
Leo Harmon (07:49):
It's a tough question, right? Because we're, we're in a financial services industry, and this is an industry where we benchmark almost everything. So numbers matter, you want to work for, so that reflects your geography, the customers you serve, the communities you engage. The numbers part of this in, in some ways become easier to measure, but it's not just about the numbers. It's, a lot of times it becomes more about how you measure the qualitative aspects of our DEI initiatives. So, you know, are people being treated fairly? Is there a level of transparency? Is there access? You know, you know, how do you measure employee happiness? Those things are probably as important as driving your numbers higher. So in a sense, you have to start to question and survey and get input from your colleagues in order to do that, to look for variances between people in groups.
Leo Harmon (08:59):
So, for example, you have a workforce that's, you know, 80% white and 20% nonwhite. And you ask a simple question, like, does your company discriminate? And the answer comes back and 90% of the survey says no, my company doesn't discriminate. And you look across those answers in different subgroups, and they're all at 90%. That's great. You have a company that's focused and doesn't discriminate. You ask another question. Am I being treated fairly? Or am I being evaluated objectively? And you get the exact same answer. 90% of your organization says, yes, I'm being treated fairly. But when you look at the subgroups, you have a hundred percent of your white employees that say I'm being treated fairly, and you have 50% of your nonwhite employees that say I'm not being treated fairly. And so now, you get the exact same answer to a question, but with completely different dissidents in that subgroup.
Leo Harmon (10:05):
So do have a problem with perception? Do you have a problem with fairness? Do you have a problem with transparency? And those are the types of things that you really need to answer in your company that won't necessarily be delivered by the data and by the numbers. Boston Consulting did a survey related to dimensions a couple of years ago. And what they were looking at as a dimension is how many degrees of freedom are you away, or how many dimensions are you away from the base of your organization? So the base being white and male. And every degree away from that, and you are, is one degree. So if you're black and male, that's one degree, if you are a white woman, that would be one degree. And if you were a black and female or Latin and female, that would be two degrees away.
Leo Harmon (10:59):
And what they discovered is every degree away from the baseline you were, created a, a difference in how you perceived yourself as being included in an organization. So they looked at it, am I being treated authentically? And you look at the numbers by degrees of freedom. It goes from minus four to minus seven, to minus 14, to minus 18. They looked at, are my perspectives being valued in my organization? And it's the same pattern. When you look at dimensions away from the base, it goes from minus six to minus seven, to minus 15, to minus 19. And so all of those things have to be taken into consideration when you're considering, you know, how do I judge and value whether or not I'm making progress on these initiatives? The last thing he talked about, Rob, was impediments. And really that comes down to two things in my mind.
Leo Harmon (11:59):
The first thing is norms and structures. And so we all live in these organizations that have existed for lots of time. And they have their own norms and structures in place as to how they recruit and how they bring people into their organization. And particularly within the financial services business, a lot of this is based on referral. And we were in a business that's, that has relatively low turnover. So, you can imagine that a job opens up, most managers and hiring managers are going to go back to some referral within their group or work with someone that they've worked with previously, or the neighbor or the neighbor's kid. And usually those are folks that look just like us, in most of America. And so if that's, your practice it's not that you're intentional about discriminating against someone, but the impact is the same because you're choosing from a pool of folks that often look just like you.
Leo Harmon (13:07):
And the only way to change that is to really break the model and start to drive your pipelines and recruitments from other places. The other big area of impediment is an execution. And we talk about this a lot within our, within our group. And then within our firm, you can have all of the buy-in from the top that you want, but if the middle doesn't have enough throughput and enough execution, the facts on the ground won't change. And so you have to be able to drive these initiatives both top down and bottom up. You have to be able to teach your middle managers to evaluate objectively to be more transparent and fair. You have to have training processes in place that are both educational and practical to help those managers learn how to do this so they can see where they may have biases or where they're, or maybe where they just have a lack of training in a certain area. And then you need effective oversight, to drive accountability because of that. And so in your hiring practices, and in your promotion practices, you want to really know why person was hired, or why a person was promoted. And probably more importantly for this conversation, why a person wasn't hired, or why a person wasn't promoted. That can be very legitimate reasons for that, but you want to get to a root cause so that you don't have these types of impediments in your organization.
Eileen Rochford (14:46):
There's so much in everything that you just said that I have 10 million follow-up questions. I'm not even kidding. Um, would you mind if I just asked about one area as a follow-up? In particular I'd like to get back to your point about hiring practice and practices and that tight circle that we all tend to live in wherever referrals come from, or we get people who are somehow a degree or two away from us. Those people tend to come into our hiring pool as a matter of course, how are you changing that at Mesirow? Because I feel like a lot of people listening could learn from that. If you have an explanation. That just seems so complicated.
Leo Harmon (15:33):
We tried to do two things and it goes back to embedding DEI into the DNA of an organization. One thing that we did was merge our DEI office with our recruiting office. And so that in that respect, the recruiting coordinators are actually responsible and accountable to our DEI objectives. And so it gives them a lot of accountability related to going out, actually finding diverse candidates to consider as part of the pool and evaluate them effectively within that pool. We also extended the budget for that office, so that they can go and find different recruiting channels, whether that be historically black colleges and universities, or whether that be Hispanic serving institutions. Whether there be organizations that effectively focus on training traditionally underrepresented communities. We wanted them to have a budget to be able to, to widen the funnel.
Leo Harmon (16:49):
And in my mind, if you can widen the funnel, and if you can expand the pod, the numbers will sort of take care of themselves. So in one sense, you're being deliberate about who you are considering in your pool of applicants and your pool of candidates. And so that when you, when it gets to the point of selection, you're at least selecting from a broader pool of candidates, which increases not only your chances of improving diversity, but also widens the scope and increases the probabilities of having, you know, really good talent come into your organization that you otherwise wouldn't have seen.
Eileen Rochford (17:29):
No question. Now that's so smart. Do you have any follow-up's Rob? Dig deeper in anything?
Rob Johnson (17:36):
Well, I'm just fascinated because that the, to your point, that the last answer he answered before that had, you know, the question I asked him had so many different layers of what's going on. And I think one of the areas that we, I want to talk about a little bit, and you touched upon it, Leo was the unconscious bias because that's one of the frameworks of identifying a good DEI program and a firm. Because a lot of times, you know, we think of DEI like, okay, this is the way we're going to do it, because we've always done this way. And there's a bunch of people that don't necessarily represent, you know, what Chicago or America looks like per se, but it's also about the unconscious bias because of my experiences. And you got to the one and two degrees away thing, which speaks exactly to it. How do you, how do you make people aware of, hey, you know what, you have an unconscious, you don't mean to do this to other people, but you're doing it to other people. You have this unconscious bias. How do you raise awareness? How do you communicate that within your firm about let's stop for a second and let's really address this?
Leo Harmon (18:48):
Yeah, I think that the only way you can really do it is talk about the impact. And so you can have a sincere intent to make change to drive diversity, but still have a negative impact because of how you recruit or how you select, or the managers that you hire to recruit and select on your behalf. And you're driving negative outcomes. And so data helps with sort of the root cause of that. You know, what created the dissonance between my sincere intent and these negative outcomes? And is it a matter of training and is it a matter of education? Or do I have a bad apple in my organization that is just not part of the program that is going to continue to drive these issues in a negative way for our organization? And so I think that that's the best way to do it is to look at the impact. And so even though your intentions are benign, your impact is deleterious. And then you, once you can illustrate that, and again, once you can make a business case as to why that is going to hurt your organization, then you can start with the other set of processes, which involve training and education, and, you know, understanding, you know, those biases and how your structure is leading to those negative outcomes.
Eileen Rochford (20:35):
I'm also curious, Leo, has Mesirow been on this journey with an outside partner? Because it sounds like you're doing everything so right. And I'm just where you're getting your great guidance.
Leo Harmon (20:49):
Yeah. Part, part of it is we, as we formed our council realized that if we're going to have, if we're going to use data to help drive the initiative that we would need an outside partner to gather that force. And so we've been working with a consultant called Korn Ferry which has been really instrumental in setting up the structure with our guidance as to what we want to get from a lot of these initiatives. And so we've done a lot of work around talent management analysis. Around retention, employee interviews and focus groups and leadership studies that are helping us to guide, or helping to guide us, from a policy perspective. And the types of steps we need to take in the second phase of our, in the third phase's of our DEI initiatives in order to close, you know, whatever shortcomings we perceive in our program.
Eileen Rochford (22:05):
That's good to know. Thank you. So let's take this in a slightly different direction. I'm wondering if, if an organization is, is operating as an opportunist of DEI, and really isn't showing that they have much to back it up, how's that going to hurt their brand? Do you think that that's going to welcome or invite public backlash or even from their customers or clients? Let's talk about that.
Leo Harmon (22:31):
Yeah, so it's a really interesting question because like us, a lot of these initiatives have gained a sense of urgency only in the last year or so. And so you haven't really had a enough time for companies to have a proof statement as to what they're saying externally is really matching what they're trying to do internally. And I don't know if I've coined this phrase, but I'm starting to call it the rainbow rinse and in the rainbow rinsing where, you know, people are just saying, hey, we're diverse, we're inclusive, we're an equitable. And they're maybe doing it for a purpose other than actually being diverse. And so within our group, we talk about this a lot, too. Do you want to look diverse or do you want to be diverse? And there's a different between the two. And the folks that are rainbow rinsing, and they just want to look diverse.
Leo Harmon (23:33):
They don't have a policy in place. There is a study on the Society of Human Resource Management website called elevate equity the real story of diversity. And they talk to over 800 HR professionals. And some of the results of the survey were really disturbing. 80% of companies, in the survey were tagged as going through the motions. 76% of these companies have no DEI goals listed. 75% of these companies don't have a DEI component to their company leadership. 40% of these companies see DEI as just a way to mitigate legal responsibility. 35% of these companies, or less than 35% of these companies don't require any training for DEI for their employees or their hiring managers. And 12% of these companies have no accountability, and no training, for managers responsible for recruiting diverse talent.
Rob Johnson (24:47):
That's really fascinating, Leo, because, I, you know, I remember when this first started last summer and I would have various clients here and there say, what should we put out a statement? What should we say something? And my advice was always, you better do what's authentic to your, the people that work for you. And would you normally weigh in on this kind of issue, because if you're not willing to back it up with action, opportunity and investment, to make sure that this diverse pool of candidates is going to be able to be seated at your decision-making table, then you're going to run a foul of being inauthentic and it's going to hurt your brand. And I think that's a really important thing for people to understand that if you're going to talk this talk, as Eileen mentioned earlier, you better walk-the-walk. It's not just, let's put out a statement and, hey, that's good enough. It has to be followed with action and intent and real, you know, real concerted effort.
Leo Harmon (25:48):
I couldn't agree more, particularly as it relates to the investment. I think a lot of companies have to put their money where their mouth's are. Don't say it unless you're going to do it. Now, some of it too depends on your client base. So to Eileen's question about pushback, are you going to get pushback from your client base? In our industry? Absolutely. Because we have a lot of clients that have their own internal diversity initiatives that have their own internal vendor initiatives, where they want and value companies that are more reflective of the communities in which they work and more reflective of the, their own colleagues and employees within their organization. And so we in the financial services industry will certainly be held to the fire from our underlying customers when it comes to this. The, I think the bigger impact though may be within your own employee base and among your colleagues. Because if you are holding yourself out as being diverse and equitable and looking for these outcomes within your organization and your employees don't see that as being authentic, you're going to lose a lot of those employees and that's a business issue.
Leo Harmon (27:21):
It costs anywhere from 20% to 40% more to go out and get a new employee than it does to retain an old one. And that is a practical business problem that if you're not authentic in this effort will cost you from a profitability standpoint.
Eileen Rochford (27:45):
And wouldn't you say that right now, with 40% of employees saying that they're considering leaving their jobs that that's a particularly dangerous place to be?
Leo Harmon (27:57):
Yes a particularly dangerous place to be. 40% of the folks are considering leaving their jobs. 80% of folks, what, this goes to a different issue, but 80% of folks are after post COVID looking for opportunities to be in some hybrid-level of, of, of workforce where they can work from home part-time and work in the office part-time. And a lot of that starts to relate to culture and how the culture of that office is either impactful or is negative to those particular groups of people. So there are lots of folks who are rethinking the workplace. And from lots of different perspectives, post COVID and DEI is just one aspect of that.
Eileen Rochford (28:58):
So I'm curious. You personally, as a black man in a leadership role within a financial institution, what's your viewpoint on this groundswell of DEI and support that's occurring? Just, this is more personal than, you know, yeah.
Leo Harmon (29:10):
It's interesting because when I first came into the industry a little over 25 years ago I actually got my start as an intern with Caterpillar in Peoria. And I was part of a group of folks that were a part of an affirmative action policy that Caterpillar instituted for women and minority employees. And when we looked at the profile of our group the average GPA was 3.5, the average class ranked was in the top 10%. And so there, wasn't a qualification issue related to you having this group of folks being involved in his program, and some of us wonder, you know, why didn't they just hire us through a regular mechanism? Why did we actually need this direct program and in order to be hired? And I think that issue really comes down to how do you build pipelines?
Leo Harmon (30:23):
And so, 25 years ago, there, I would go to meetings and I would be the only person of color in the room. 25 years later, there's still lots of times I'll go to meetings and I'll be the only person of color in the room. And so I, these initiatives become more personal to me because of that. I'm really happy. I'm thrilled that more businesses are now starting to focus on, on, on driving and recruiting diverse talent. I think it's a, win-win. I think you get talent wherever you can find it and it increases your probability of success. And I think it's a win because it gives an opportunity in the past for traditionally underrepresented communities to move into areas of work that have been traditionally close to them.
Leo Harmon (31:22):
And so I think that piece is really good. I think a lot of what we want to do going forward is really building pipelines and building awareness. I used to do this project when I was in grad school called supply side affirmative action, where you create your own supply. And you eliminate the barriers, and you eliminate the quote "I would like to, but I can't find them". And if I can create my own supply, and if I can eliminate this aspect of lowering your quality in order to get a supply of diverse candidates, and then I can create organizations that are more reflective. So at Mesirow, we're working with a couple of groups like that. There's a group called the Greenwood Project located in Chicago that works and trains diverse students in the area of financial services. We work with another group called Link Unlimited. (Johnson) That’s a great program, Link does great work. (Harmon) They do great work and, you know, really high-achieving, high [inaudible] high school students that, you know, hopefully one day will come to work for Mesirow. And then, and there are a couple of others like Chicago Scholars and Thrive Scholars that we work with. And it's all about really providing not only the opportunity set, but having a, a supply of business-ready, candidates that can easily leverage themselves into your organization.
Rob Johnson (33:16):
So Leo, once you've begun purposeful DEI initiatives, like you said, Mesirow's work started before the George Floyd murder, but it became really formalized after that horrible event happened. When can you expect to have tangible results where the hiring and opportunity within the firms start to reflect the diversity you're striving for? You're doing all this great work. You're working hard to make sure that your workforce is more representative of what the world looks like, but do you run into instances where you say, you know, can you, you can't say in three or six months, because hiring is a long process and finding the right people, especially when you are, sort of, making sure that there are different things implemented than there once was. It can, it can take a little while. So is there any frustration there? And what do you think is realistic from the time you say, okay, we're going to do this to have it start taking a foothold in your firm?
Leo Harmon (34:19):
Yeah. It's a pertinent question because it, to your point, it's this, it's a math problem as well, right. So what does the good look like? Number one. What does this goal look like at the end of the day? And I think you have to be both directional and intentional in driving that purpose. So to the front end of this is a little easier, you know, I can get better numbers. I get to have better policies. I can build better pipelines and hopefully that, you know, creates an avenue that directionally my number start to improve. So whatever your organization is, whatever that goal is, you're trying to reflect within that organization, the numbers on the front end are a little easier to see and to accomplish. So an example of that is, there have been a couple of consultant organizations that have said we are going to have two thirds of all of our new hires come from traditionally underrepresented communities. Because, the only way for us to really truly move the needle within our organization is to put it into the front end of the pipeline.
Leo Harmon (35:43):
And over time, if I have a higher rate of two thirds, you know, my number will move from X to Y over this period. So if I'm 10% diverse, then maybe it takes me three years to get to 25% diverse if I hire, if I have a higher rate of two thirds. So that's one way to do it. I think the second thing is on the backend. And that's going to be harder to see, because that goes back to looking at some of those qualitative issues. Am I being fair? Am I being transparent? Am I driving happiness? You know, how many of these folks that are coming through the front end, am I keeping on the back end? How do they actually feel about working at my organization? And so if the backend numbers slip, because you're only driving diversity for diversity's sake, then you've completely missed the boat.
Leo Harmon (36:47):
And if you haven't had programs of inclusion and of equity in order to make those folks that are coming in on the front end really feel good about belonging into your organization, you will fail on the back end. And so I think it really takes, you know, two to three years on the front end to start to see the numbers markedly improve, but it may take longer on the back end to see if what you're doing from a policy perspective is actually having a bigger impact on your organization. Is it becoming part of that, that DNA? Where you consider DEI in every business decision and every hiring decision that you make, because it's just part of the fabric of your organization.
Eileen Rochford (37:42):
I'm curious, Leo, how to have conversations and use communications internally to, do it well, and not trigger conversations about quotas? That's one thing that we didn't really get to, and we've talked a lot about communications on this podcast. So I think it's an important thing for us to address.
Leo Harmon (38:01):
Yeah, it it's, it's really a nuanced conversation. So, you know, from the perspective, you know, if I'm a white male in his group, does your focus on DEI mean that I get excluded from opportunities within the organization? Are you just bringing people in because you want to increase your numbers? And now it becomes even more deleterious to the organization because it doesn't fit any particular business purpose. And the response I usually have to that is, you know, we don't necessarily want to think about those things as being related. You know, increasing diversity should not have an impact on the quality or the qualifications of the underlying group of people that you're bringing into your organization. You do have to be deliberate. So we, I mean, it is how is having a two-thirds rule, a quota in-and-of itself? I guess, to an extent, it is, but it's the only way for you to solve the mass problem of actually increasing the levels of diversity within your organization.
Leo Harmon (39:25):
The biggest thing is, and the way we try to think about it is we're trying to expand the pie. We're trying to increase the levels of opportunities. And so you can look at it from a market share perspective and say, well, the market share of my white population of workers is moving down, but from a numbers perspective, my organization is growing. So I'm creating more opportunities, not only for traditionally underrepresented communities, I'm creating more opportunities for the entirety of my organization. And so that's the way we really like to look at it. I think if you go at this blindly, I think if you have some element of tokenism I think if you are, you know, driving numbers for numbers sake, these efforts backfire. You're going to alienate, not only those, those group of underrepresented in communities, you're going to alienate your traditional within a financial services, what has been traditionally white and male within your organization. And you're going to create negative impacts across your group. If you're doing this for the right reasons, because there's a link to your business objectives, because you're actually making an effort to go out and hire people of color that are really representative of the talent within your organization, these objectives pay for themselves overnight.
Rob Johnson (41:07):
I think you really raised an interesting point, Leo, because I've heard you say this before, and you said it in a similar fashion just now, but when people say, oh, what about the quotas? And I've heard you say before, well, listen, we just need to do a better job in recruiting. We need to go to those. We need to go do a better job of finding those qualified candidates because they're out there and think that that's a really important factor or nuance to discern here. So, as Eileen mentioned, you know, this is a communications podcast, and we're talking about communicating a very important message about DEI. But what do you, what would you say you're doing specifically at Mesirow to communicate this, the efforts of DEI within the walls of the company? And did you have difficulty communicating it when everybody was working remotely? You have roughly 500 employees. Everybody's working remotely and oh, by the way, the DEI council gets started during the pandemic.
Leo Harmon (42:11):
Yeah, it is interesting because I think the pandemic may have helped us more than hurt us. Because everyone working remotely, they have time to tune into zoom cast and broadcast related to a lot of these different issues. Whereas sometimes when you're in the actual workplace, you get disturbed by your neighbor, you have, you're having off conversations. You don't have time to really target and concentrate on some of these issues. So I think some, the remote aspects actually helped us. So for example, we did a lot of work during black history month related to workplace environment unconscious bias training. And we did all of those via zoom. And because of that, we were, when we're in the office, we're usually able to only do maybe one or two of these programs a year. Because of being remote, we were able to actually do a program a week related to a lot of those issues.
Leo Harmon (43:29):
And so that created, and they were all very well attended, which increased the level of consciousness across our organization more than we ever thought we could. We've been doing a lot of work on our, on our website, just sort of detailing and highlighting the goals, objectives, and the action items that the DEI council has been working on. And then we've been doing a variety of other programs related to, not necessarily even cultural bias, but just cultural awareness. During women's history month celebrating Asian American Pacific Islander history month and just really trying to drive a conversation that creates more visibility around leaders in our organization that come from various backgrounds.
Eileen Rochford (44:29):
That's amazing. I'm so happy hear that that all went really well, despite the pandemic. That's really, it's fascinating to think about how the change in the format of how you're communicating as an organization played such a large role in the success. Very interesting. One thing I want to get your opinion on, Leo, is there are organizations out there, one I'll mention, the CEO Action for Diversity and Inclusion. So that was formed in 2017, and it was formed by leaders of the really big companies, like Accenture, P&G, PWC. So it includes a pledge for CEOs to sign on a, you know, as signatory as essentially to making a difference in this regard. But it also gives them things like supports, events, resources, and, you know, CEO Action isn't the only one out there, but it is very significant. I think they have 2000 CEO signatories right now. What do you think about the value of consortium's like this today?
Leo Harmon (45:32):
So, I mean, I think there's some value to those consortium's and Mesirow is a member of CEO Action for Diversity and Inclusion. We're also a signatory on what is called UN Principles for Responsible Investing, which through its sustainable development goals has lots of elements of diversity and inclusion and fairness embedded in that. So I think there's some value to at least externally committing, or at least externally acknowledging that inclusion is an important aspect of our business. Whether you had a level of commitment to that is always focused more internally. So we laugh a lot about, you know, symbolism is good, substance is better. And I really enjoy, and like the symbolism of somebody’s organizations, but substance and policy and action it's what's really going to move the needle. We had a joke, thank you for Juneteenth. What about Monday? So, I'm glad to have Juneteenth. I'm glad that it's acknowledged. And I appreciate the symbolism behind that. But when I go back to work on Monday, I really need the substance and the policy that makes me feel included and creates equitable outcomes.
Rob Johnson (47:18):
That's a really great point, Leo, and as you know, a lot of the federal government was making Juneteenth has now made it a national holiday, and that's a new thing. And so people are getting used to sort of, you know, thinking about it in those terms. But yes, you want it to be beyond June 19th. You want to be talking about it June 21st and June 22nd, June 25th. So it's a really good point. So before we let you go, this has been very enlightening. I just, so grateful for your comments, any final thoughts you'd like to share with our audience?
Leo Harmon (47:57):
Yeah, I think the, one of the questions we get a lot is how can we help if I'm a like-minded individual, but I'm not part of an underrepresented community, you know, how can I really help drive the process for? Where, if I am part of an underrepresented community, you know, what should I be doing in order to really embrace DEI initiatives? And I talk a lot about three things, one is just allyship or being an accomplice. Where you're really driving the discussions within your organization. And so you should have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to people who are being excluded when it comes to levels of microaggression that create inequitable outcomes within your organization. You may not have the power to do that on your own, but you really should be speaking to management teams or HR personnel when you notice patterns of inequity when you notice patterns of unfairness that are having a negative impact on your workforce.
Leo Harmon (49:11):
The second thing really revolves around actions. What can I do from within my workplace to have more awareness of unconscious bias to get more training, and to really recognize how my actions and sometimes how my inaction helped to perpetuate a level of unfairness within my organization? And the last thing we talk about is really sort of altering the landscape. Join groups that are, that pursue these goals, whether it's within your organization or outside your organization. And then lastly, you know, do the work around this. You know, don't go to your friend and say, hey, you know, tell me about unconscious bias or structural racism. You know, go and actually do the work and get involved. There are a ton of resources out there.
Leo Harmon (50:20):
A couple of good books that I've read this year, just that deal with sort of just the structure of inequity and how it has a real deleterious impact on society. One would be Caste by Isabel Wilkerson. And there's another book called The Sum of Us by Heather McGhee which really talks about how zero come out, zero-sum outcomes in society really bring everyone down. And if we can expand the pie, we can have a much more prosperous society. One of the books I've read from one of our consultants, Andres Tapia, The Five Disciplines of Inclusive Leaders, has been really instructive in helping with my thought process. Andres has really been a thought leader in this space for a long time and does a lot of good work.
Leo Harmon (51:23):
And then there are lots of websites that are just chock full of data around a lot of these items. So the Society for Human Resource Management, Korn Ferry, McKinsey has done a ton of work around DEI initiatives. As well as Boston Consulting. You know, all of those folks have really done a good job. And so if you truly value this work and think it can be valuable to those, to your organization, those would be some of the action items I would leave with you in order to better increase your framework and your thought process around these initiatives.
Rob Johnson (52:08):
Well, that's something, that's something else. Eileen, what do you think about all this? Great stuff, Leo.
Eileen Rochford (52:13):
Thank you so much, just for taking the time to share all of this with us and with our listeners. I'm so grateful. And I know Rob, you share that.
Leo Harmon (52:21):
Eileen, I hear, I have to wish you a happy 29th birthday!
Eileen Rochford (52:29):
If only!
Rob Johnson (52:29):
Right? Right. She had a big milestone birthday.
Eileen Rochford (52:32):
Five-O baby. It's a nice club. I'm glad to be in it. And thank you.
Leo Harmon (52:38):
We call it the 21st anniversary of your 29th birthday.
Rob Johnson (52:46):
That's a great way to look at it. Great way to like, well, listen, Leo, we can't thank you enough for coming on today and for sharing your vast information about a topic that should be, and is of great importance to C-suite level executives, to corporate America, and to America at large, I would think in general. So Leo, thank you.
Leo Harmon (53:06):
Yeah, this has been fun. Thank you guys for having me on, I appreciate it.
Rob Johnson (53:11):
Our pleasure. So I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications. Thanks for joining us for another episode of, can you hear me?
Eileen Rochford (53:19):
And I'm Eileen Rochford CEO of The Harbinger Group. We hope you'll join us for our next episode of, Can You Hear Me? Thanks for being with us today.