For four years now, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, or DEI, has been a priority in C-Suites everywhere. Not only is it considered the right thing to do, but to do business in the corporate, nonprofit, or government sectors, a clear, actionable DEI policy has been a necessity. However, in recent months, there has been a softening of that stance, which led us to wonder “Is DEI Still a Priority? Join “Can You Hear Me?” co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford as they welcome special guest Kimberly Dowdell, President of the American Institute of Architects, the AIA.
For four years now, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, or DEI, has been a priority in C-Suites everywhere. Not only is it considered the right thing to do, but to do business in the corporate, nonprofit, or government sectors, a clear, actionable DEI policy has been a necessity. However, in recent months, there has been a softening of that stance, which led us to wonder “Is DEI Still a Priority? Join “Can You Hear Me?” co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford as they welcome special guest Kimberly Dowdell, President of the American Institute of Architects, the AIA.
Meet our Guest: Kimberly Dowdell
Kimberly Dowdell, AIA, NOMAC, is the 2024 President of the American Institute of Architects (AIA). Dowdell is also a principal with global design firm HOK, serving as firmwide director of strategic relationships. In 2019-2020, Dowdell served as national president of the National Organization of Minority Architects (NOMA).
Dowdell has devoted her career to laying foundations for architects to create positive social and environmental change on a local, national and global scale. She has intentionally connected a diverse array of built environment stakeholders to help advance her professional mission, which is “to improve people's lives, by design."
At HOK, Dowdell co-chairs the firm’s Diversity Advisory Council (DAC) and co-founded HOK Impact, the firm’s social responsibility program. She also co-founded Social Economic Environmental Design (SEED), an organization that promotes design for healthy communities in 2005. Dowdell earned her Master of Public Administration at Harvard and her Bachelor of Architecture at Cornell, where she was elected by her fellow alumni to serve on the board of trustees in 2022.
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Eileen Rochford: [00:00:19] Hello everyone, and welcome to. Can you hear me? I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the harbinger Group, a marketing and strategy firm. [00:00:27][7.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:00:27] And I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications. For those of you who listen regularly, you know that we like to tackle topics that are top of mind for leaders in the C-suite. And today's discussion is Dei still a priority? Certainly fits that mold. [00:00:41][13.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:00:41] That's right Rob. So first, let's start with just a little bit of context. Diversity. Equity and inclusion. Commonly referred to as Dei, really emerged at the forefront of business in 2020 after the murder of George Floyd in Minnesota. Suddenly, businesses, government entities and organizations everywhere were asked really tough questions about whether enough was being done to provide a diverse, equitable and inclusive workplace. So many started Dei committees and began doing really challenging work of asking hard questions about what kind of workplace did they have. [00:01:14][33.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:01:15] Right? And not only is it seen as the right thing to do, but in many cases, if you were competing for corporate or government clients, one of the first questions asked was whether you had a Dei policy. If you couldn't articulate your company's vision, you might miss out on opportunities for years later, though, we're wondering whether Dei is still a priority. [00:01:33][18.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:01:34] That's right. It seems that, the tide is shifting and things are changing, so we really want to talk about that today. Recently, I think this was just about two months ago, in March of 2020, for an article in Crain's Chicago Business that was titled the Dei Backlash Has Come for Chicago C-suite. stated that, quote, programs created to ensure fair treatment and broader representation are under attack across the US. In fact, Kimberly Dowdell, the president of the 167 year old American Institute of Architects, the largest design organization in the world, which boasts nearly 100,000 members, was quoted in that article saying, it's really disturbing how quickly the pendulum is shifting back toward a less inclusive and diverse society. [00:02:21][47.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:02:22] So when we read that article, we knew we needed to discuss this critical Dei issue again and invite Kimberly Dowdell on. Can you hear me to do so? So we'd like to give a warm welcome to Kimberly Dowdell, the first president of the I who is a black millennial. And, Kim, thanks for joining us today. It's great to have you on. We appreciate you joining us. [00:02:40][18.3]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:02:41] Hello. Hello. Thank you for having me. This is going to be a good discussion. [00:02:43][2.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:02:44] I think I think it's going to be so Kim, why don't you start off by giving us your background, your origin story, and you know how you got here. [00:02:51][7.1]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:02:51] Sure. So I grew up in Detroit, Michigan, founded, actually, where I'm sitting today. And, my origin story is really rooted in, in Detroit in the 80s and 90s as a youngster. And a lot of the disinvestment that, was sort of characteristic of the city at that time. You know, four decades later, I'm really pleased that Detroit is coming back. But at the time, some really beautiful old buildings that were built 100 years ago, you know, we're starting to to come out of service. They were being boarded up and demolished and, you know, all of these things. So as a little kid that really impacted me, you know, just seeing things that, you know, sort of used to seeing start to come down and sort of things start to deteriorate. And so as a little kid, I wanted to be a doctor because I wanted to help people. And then I had this epiphany moment after I had learned about architecture in a middle school art class. I said, looking at this one particular building, the Hudson's department store in downtown Detroit. I said, I want to be an architect so that I can fix this building so that we can help to heal the community. So that was kind of the origin story of wanting to become an architect, being like a healer for the larger, you know, neighborhood context. And in this particular case, downtown, which I think has an impact on, on the neighborhood. So, so that was really how it got started for me as an 11 year old. And then I went off to architecture school, and I did what I like to call a 14 year East Coast tour. So I, I've lived in seven cities at this point, most of them on the East Coast. But, you know, Detroit is where I started. And then I moved to Chicago, in 2019 when I, rejoined H. Okay. Which is the firm where I work at Global Design Firm. So that's kind of a short overview of kind of where I've, I've been and, you know how this all started, but I became I president, actually 22 weeks ago. And I know that because I do a weekly social media post on what I've been up to as I president. So this is week 22, and I did my post earlier today. And, you know, a big part of why I ran for I president is because, there had never been a black woman in that position. As was mentioned, it was founded 167 years ago, and we just hadn't gotten there. And I had a pretty successful, term as president of Noma, which is the national organization for minority architects in 2019 and 2020, nearly double, actually nearly tripling our membership, more than doubling, the Noma membership raising over $1 million. Yeah, establishing a staff for the first time. So I felt pretty good about, you know, sort of scaling up, if you will, and running for. Which I did in 2022. So that's that's where we are today. [00:05:21][149.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:05:21] Congratulations. That's fantastic. [00:05:23][1.3]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:05:23] Good for you. Yeah, I appreciate that. [00:05:25][2.1]
Eileen Rochford: [00:05:26] Absolutely. I'm just really proud that you have the desire to do that. That's really fantastic. Like, it's really, you know, sometimes women in particular, you know, it's we don't always step forward and say we want something. And I just applaud you for doing that. That's amazing. [00:05:41][14.9]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:05:41] Thank you. Well, actually, if I, if I could just add a little bit more on that, I would say it's not I wouldn't I wouldn't define it as desire. It was probably more so courage. And that was in part because I said no the first couple of times I was approached about it. So this wasn't like an idea that I had originally. It was like other people were like, you should do this. And I said no a couple of times. And then I decided, you know, if not me, who? And if not now, when? So that's that's how this came. [00:06:09][27.4]
Rob Johnson: [00:06:09] So they ask, it happened enough times where you really had to kind of assess maybe this is the right time. Maybe I am the right person. So it was maybe a little bit more reluctance to do it, but it took the as you said, the courage. Yeah to do it. So it was more like looking around the room and going, maybe I am the person. Is that fair to say? [00:06:26][17.1]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:06:26] That is fair to say. So that's that's how we got here. [00:06:29][2.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:06:29] That's great and good for all those people for continuing to encourage you. So very, very happy to hear that. And just a side note, I love your story that you learned about architecture in art class. Yeah, of art class right there. [00:06:43][13.7]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:06:44] In fact, I am currently the board chair of an organization in Chicago called ingenuity, which works to ensure that all Chicago public School students have access to high quality arts education. Because I know firsthand how important that is. So, just a quick plug for Ingenuity Chicago. [00:06:59][14.9]
Eileen Rochford: [00:06:59] Very good. I'm glad you mentioned that. Wonderful. Okay, so, Kim, as the president of the IEA, you can set forth goals as well as best practices and lots of other things. So what are some of the goals of the IEA and what is your platform for 2024? What are you working to accomplish? [00:07:16][17.0]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:07:17] Yeah, sure. Well, one of the things that I learned, when I was president of Noma, is how important it is to have a clear message and set of goals. And so, so I did all that a few years ago, and I thought to myself, what do I want to put forward for this presidency? And, I have a tendency to prefer alliteration and running because it helps people remember things. And so my, I'll just I'll tell you the Noma thing, just so it, like, puts it in context. So when I was Noma president, the call to action was for everyone to be all in for Noma, all standing for, access, leadership and legacy to create access to the profession, to help, cultivate leadership within our member membership and to help promote building a long lasting legacy. And so their programs that were attached to each of those three, three items. So for AA, I decided to go with a different slogan, this time leaning more into rhyming and alliteration, but also very memorable. More in 24. And so a natural question is more of what? So there are three specific things more money, more members, and more mission. More money is really in response to, the fact that archetypes on average are, you know, compensated at a level that doesn't quite align with the level of education that's required and the experience requirements to become a licensed architect. Right now, it takes a little over 13 years to, to earn one's license in architecture. And that's that's a very, very, you know, intense commitment. And for starting salaries to be currently in the 50,000, well, near 60,000. But basically sometimes, you know, 55,000 on average, that might be going up a little bit with inflation, but not significantly. And then even on average for a professional, it's still not 100,000. And just given all that's required, especially, five, 6 or 7 years of education, with the cost of education. And so it's like the math doesn't matter. And so I'm trying to be more vocal about that so that as, you know, as an organization, we can take steps to help improve those starting salaries, in particular, if we want to really recruit and retain the best talent to help us achieve our mission, which is to empower and inspire architects to improve society and transform the world. So, I mean, that's a tall order, and we need to pay people adequately to do that. [00:09:38][140.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:09:38] That is definitely a tall order. [00:09:40][1.3]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:09:40] Yes. [00:09:40][0.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:09:41] So yeah, that makes complete sense. They deserve it. [00:09:44][3.1]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:09:44] Yes, yes. More money, more members. So at the end of last year, we were at about 98,000 members, which was an all time high. I'd like for us to get to 100,000 members and the 100th president. So that just seems to make sense. We're within striking distance of that. In fact, my post for week 22, earlier today was, were a just, just under 90,000 for the year, which means we actually are trending toward our 100,000 member goal. We just want to get there as quickly as possible so we can celebrate it. So I think we'll we'll do that. And one of the things I like to say, which I borrowed from, one of. My professors and grad schools. People vote with their feet. And if we can, you know, prove that we are doing the work that, that's valuable to architects and and really showing our value, then more people will join and renew and, you know, just help, spur forward our, our mission, which leads to the last, pillar, if you will, more mission. As I mentioned, it's to empower and inspire architects to improve society and transform the world. And we've really, we're currently in our, strategic plan that's focused primarily on, climate action and equity. And so those are the two things. Of course, there are many different things that we're we're trying to accomplish. But as we know, if everything's important, nothing is important. So, you know, the the board of directors, that that approved our current strategic plan really focused on climate action and equity. And so everything that we do is really meant to, you know, be viewed through through those lenses. And so, you know, I've been doing a lot of travel this year. Some of it has been related to, decarbonization specifically. In fact, I was just in Madrid a few weeks ago for the, Ashrae Decarbonization Conference. And that's, you know, the engineers talking about, you know, what can we do as a building industry to help, with decarbonization to benefit the planet? And I may or may not have sung the Captain Planet theme song, during my panel. It's it just happened. I mentioned the importance of Captain Planet, and someone started singing the song, so I joined them. So, that's really. Yeah, I think it's important that, you know, we do as a, as an industry, talk about what we can, collectively accomplish to, you know, really reduce our, our impact on, the planet and then equity. We, we actually have a set of resources for our members. Actually, let me go back to climate action. So there are lots of resources for climate action, specifically our framework for design excellence, our Committee on the environment boards, and so many different resources on, I thought to kind of help our members, you know, better understand what they can do, including participation in our materials pledge and our, 2030 commitments. So there's there's a lot there. And then the other piece, equity, we have the guides for equitable practice, which, you know, really helps are, you know, firm owners in particular, understand what they can do to foster more of a culture of inclusion within their, within their offices and, and help to recruit and retain, diverse talent. So there's a lot on I talk that, that deals with both of those priorities. And that's a big part of what I like to help promote this year for the remaining 30 weeks of my presidency. [00:12:55][191.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:12:56] Excellent. I just want to note that you're a literary leaning on alliteration and the way that you so clearly mapped and articulated what it is that you are doing in your leadership position. Right on. Great job. So succinct, so clear. [00:13:10][13.9]
Rob Johnson: [00:13:10] And and when you began singing that song, I am certain nobody forgot it there. Like the giver of Kim was up there. No, I think I, I think I recall she was up there and singing. [00:13:20][9.5]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:13:20] And you sing, but it just someone else started it, so I didn't want to leave them them high and dry. [00:13:25][4.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:13:25] Caught up in the moment that is. [00:13:27][1.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:13:27] That is certainly memorable. So you told us earlier about your origin story, your background, but as it relates to your leadership role within the air, how did that voice, how did all that come about, as you were going on your journey? And I know you said that everybody said he'd be the right person at the right time. But beyond that, what does it mean when you're trying to set the tone? [00:13:46][19.0]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:13:47] Yeah. I mean, a big part of why I did eventually decided to pursue this was because I felt like I had some unfinished business from my Noma presidency. And, you know, having developed so many great relationships, in the six years that I actually served in that position, so two years as president elect, two years as president, and then two years as immediate past present, which is a long time. And, you know, really wanted to further, push some of some of the items that I felt Noma was doing well with, but could certainly use the support of a very strong partner like air. And so that is what that was part of what prompted me to go ahead and make, make the decision to run. And then, as I mentioned before, not having someone who looks like me in that position ever before, really did seem like something that needed to happen. And, I think that became really real for me after I was elected. And I got a letter from a second year student at an HBCU, a young woman, and she said, something to the effect of, because you won. I feel like my dreams are more possible because, you know, there's that saying that if you if you, you know, you can't be it if you can't see it or something like that. And, you know, I don't necessarily think that, you know, not having, you know, certain people in certain positions limits one's ability. But think about how much more possible things might seem for folks who do have that visual cue, like, oh, maybe I would be welcome here, or maybe I should step up for a particular leadership position. I can't tell you how many people have come up to me and said I decided to run for XYZ. Because you ran for president. So. So even and we're talking people from all different types of backgrounds. So the extent to which I can kind of inspire action, I think is great. And, you know, for people who, you know, might be, a gift from my same, like, you know, racial, gender profile, if that helps to empower them more than that's great. In fact, when I ran for president, my campaign platform was envision new possibilities. And so, you know, that really represented, sort of a younger voice. I'm the first millennial to be elected president. Also, just as a public service announcement, millennials are now 40 plus southwest. So, because I think people think that we're still like in our 20s and so like, no, like super grand, actually, I guess there are a few who are still lingering in their 20s. But the point is, it's time to kind of allow new voices to come in and, and help to lead. And then also the, you know, the black female identity, I think is something that's very underrepresented in architecture. But there are so few of us, most of us know one another. And there's a, there's a website, the Directory of African American Architects, that's now hosted by Noma. And, it's I mean, it's a directory. And so there are just over 600 black women who are architects in the United States. I'm number two and 95. And so it just, you know, there's it seemed like running for president was an opportunity to raise awareness of that issue and, help us to improve those numbers. So that represents just under half of a percent of all architects. There are about 120,000 plus architects in the US, which is actually not a huge number. There are more attorneys in the state of California than there are architects in the entire U.S., so we're a small but mighty profession. But of that number, just over 2500 are black and just over 600 are black women. [00:17:01][194.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:17:02] Wow. I had no idea this so enlightening. Also, that small number really underscores why, you know, charging higher fees and making higher salaries makes all the sense in the world. [00:17:12][10.5]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:17:13] Exactly. [00:17:13][0.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:17:13] That's critical. [00:17:14][0.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:17:15] Yeah, yeah. Hey, I wanted to ask you really quickly on that note, Eileen, you were talking about raising the salaries and that sort of thing. And I know it's not only about money, but when you're getting, when you're changing habits and you're changing the way of doing business. And people have been hiring entry level architects for X number of dollars, and you say we should be elevating this, they should be getting more. How do you how do you get through to other firms that have budgets and the like. But we've always done it this way. And yes, you're right, but it costs real money. Hi, how is and I know you haven't figured that answer out yet, but as you're trying to figure it out, how do you make that case to the firms that you're trying to speak to? [00:17:52][37.5]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:17:53] Yeah. You know, I, I do think that architects have to do a better job of articulating our value. We've really struggled with that. And, I think in some cases, firms that are really excited about a project, they will charge fees that, aren't necessarily realistic so that they can win the project. And so that that's something that we have to address. But of course, we can't talk about fees directly because we don't want to get in trouble with antitrust law. So it's a really delicate balance. I'm not afraid to talk about the issue, but I do want to make sure that we're, you know, putting on, guardrails so that we don't run into any, any legal issues. So, finding way finding productive ways to talk about it is one thing. And then again, better articulating what we do, why we do it, and how important it is. I think we'll hopefully help to turn the tide on that, that issue. The other thing that I think is important to note is that, AI is is like a thing and we don't know what to do with it yet. But I think that there's an opportunity for us to figure out how to leverage that to our benefit and not necessarily see it as a threat. Again, it's it's still kind of early days, so we're not entirely sure what to do with it. But I think that this is our moment to figure it out and hopefully, improve the way that we structure our fees and, and leverage that those capabilities. I think that would be an important, next set of steps. Yeah. The other thing that I'm doing very specifically to address this issue and some other issues that I've already mentioned, is promote what I'm calling the Chief Architect Initiative. So, okay, so what is it is basically an effort to promote architect and senior level positions in city government in particular, but not exclusive to city government could be county government or universities or some other type of, you know, situation that's, you know, involving a lot of decision making around the built environment. And, the argument there is if, let's say a mayor has a chief architect on their staff who they can sort of have as a key advisor on issues related to the built environment, really prioritizing design excellence, prioritizing issues like climate action, you know, affordable housing, adaptive reuse, blight elimination, the things that are, you know, somewhat unique to their city. But also many cities deal with some of those issues in common. What having that kind of adviser, I think would be really. One to help those cities to be better, but also to help raise the public profile of the architect and help to better articulate what architects do that provides so much value. Because I think a lot of people don't think about architects at all, which I don't blame them. But if they do think about architects, they think about an individual person designing like a single house, you know, just sort of, you know, off, you know, off on a, on an island or something. Whereas I think we have to think about, you know, the, the public policy, opportunities to, to have, you know, greater design standards within a city and how that can elevate the, you know, the look and feel of a place, but also improve our, our, our climate action, efforts, which, which is pretty important. So, so this, Chief Architects initiative came about, because last year, as president elect, I had an opportunity to speak at the U.S. Conference of Mayors. And I was sitting with I staff talking about, like, what are we going to what are we going to say to the mayors? This is actually my first, public speaking opportunity as the I president elect. In fact, the president was invited but had already committed to, to speak with it with one of our chapters and didn't want to, to just kind of back out of that commitment. So she invited me to speak in her since I was a little nervous, especially speaking with, like, the mayors of America. But I said, well, if I speak to them, I, of course want to talk about what architects do, but also have a call to action. So the primary message was architects are the civic problem solvers. You didn't know what you needed. And the ask ended up being hire a chief architect to help you make your cities better. And so when I was sitting with I staff in preparation for this, you know, very these very brief remarks, I said, well, you know, how many cities have a chief architect? Is that something we could ask? And one of the staff members said, well, I don't know if you knew this, but 50, 60 years ago, most or many, I should say many U.S. cities had a chief architect, but that position went away for whatever reason. And so it's it's been really fascinating over the last year and some change to kind of explore this a little bit more and learn. In fact, Kansas City has the chief architect position in their city charter, but they lost track of it. So then they found it in the charter and hired an architect to put in that position, which is super exciting. So I'm like, let's do more of that. That's great. Architect initiative. [00:22:40][286.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:22:40] What do you think? Back 60 years ago, isn't that when you know, huge amounts of our, infrastructure and built new building was taking place in our major cities, so of course they'd have a position like that. That makes total sense. But I'm very sad to hear that they've, you know, many, many lost sight of it. And, this needs to be revitalized, but it seems like the time to do it when our entire entire infrastructure needs to be overhauled. You know. [00:23:06][26.0]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:23:07] This is our moment. [00:23:07][0.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:07] Yeah. That's right. In order for our city to be safe in that way. Yeah. That's evident. Well, good for you again. Just awesome. So glad you're figuring all these things out. [00:23:16][8.1]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:23:16] I'm trying. I've got 30 weeks left that you got 30. You'd better hurry. [00:23:19][2.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:23:19] Up. But who's counting? [00:23:19][0.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:20] No pressure. Exactly. Okay, so let's turn our conversation, back to the Crain's article that we referenced that where you were quoted Kim. You were quoted talking about how the pendulum is shifting back toward a less inclusive and diverse society. So can we talk about what you have seen personally and professionally that illustrates this shift? [00:23:42][21.9]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:23:42] Yeah. So as I mentioned in the article, so I'm really proud that my firm has continued to support, diversity, I concluded, in fact, I'm one of the three co-chairs of the firm's Diversity Advisory Council, or DAC. And so we're continuing that work. But what I'm seeing, not just in my industry, but across, you know, multiple sectors, disinvestment and those efforts, you know, you see, you know, Dei leaders, resigning or the positions going away. And, you know, they're just higher incidence of, of, you know, just issues and problems around that particular, work. And so it does it does seem to be trending in a direction that's, that's, you know, less than ideal. You know, as we discussed in 2020, there was heightened attention because, you know, what happened to George Floyd? We were we were mostly sitting in our, in our homes watching this over and over on, you know, whichever, news platforms we take on. And so because of the pandemic, there was no we weren't distracted by sports who weren't really interacting people. We were we were sitting in it and and seeing the, the energy and attention that was going into that issue with, you know, just kind of racial tension. But also people were asking an important question. Well, what can we do within our firm, within our company, to improve conditions for those who are often overlooked or underrepresented? I'm sorry, underrepresented. And that's when some really important conversations were taking place. But since then, thankfully the pandemic is behind us. And so people have gotten back into, you know, their sort of normal routines or the new normal. Post all that that happened. And, you know, frankly, just seems like those issues are less of a priority. And, you know, for those who who are from underrepresented backgrounds or, you know, in minority groups that the issues still remain, it's just the investment and exploring those issues and, you know, creating resources or, you know, allocating programs to help support people like that seems to be what's going away. And even, you know, recently I think there's been, a more counterproductive narrative that the I now staff now stands for, in some people's minds didn't earn it, which I think is, especially troubling because as many of us know, to be a person of color, you have to work twice as hard to get half the recognition. And, you know, I think people are sort of, are getting the sense that, like, the mainstream is over Dei and, we need to just kind of like, get over it and move on. And so that's, I mean, that's kind of where we are, you know, we're seeing the programs get, you know, just defunded or, you know, just so different initiatives, programs and people that were put in place in response to the 2020 town halls and other kinds of conversations, that's just going away. And so in light of that, I think those of us who are still doing the work or seeing or people who are left and are right also doing work, and we're wondering how is this going to impact our, you know, our larger profession, our industry, society as a whole? Because I think we also recognize that, the majority of people in the US will actually be people of color by 2050. And so if we're not adequately managing these relationships, I just I have concerns about, you know, how will evolve as a society in a productive and in peaceful, manner. So that's kind of my response to, to the article and, and what I've just seen over the last, maybe a year, I would say. [00:27:19][216.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:27:19] Yeah. If I may say, too, I have I have several clients that were all in on this when it first started. And now that maybe the attention isn't being focused on it as it once was, they're still they still have their committees, they're still advancing the cause. They're still dealing with it. And and my impression from, you know, standing not too far away, that's the right thing to do. And they're still doing it. And I think they're going to reap the benefits of it. But it is astounding how many people are like, nobody's paying attention anymore. Nobody's looking our way. Let's just let's get rid of this. And since your article came out in March, there have been a couple of examples that I think are fairly troubling. And, Eileen, you and I were talking about these, prior to today's recording about people are maybe feeling a little emboldened by not letting that pendulum swing back that way. [00:28:05][46.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:28:05] Absolutely. Yeah. That, that and it being used as a political wedge, even as a rallying cry for the far right, to be, you know, the, the number one thing they're going to go after in this election year, those are troubling things to hear about. Absolutely. I just saw the. [00:28:23][17.6]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:28:23] Fact that this is an election year definitely adds to the the. I'm sorry, where I cut you out. [00:28:28][4.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:28:28] Does the tensions. You're right. It does add to it in a in a terrible way. And I'll see whenever issues like this are used in a, in an election year. It's it's very upsetting and does none of us any good, frankly. But what I was going to mention is that The Washington Post had, an article on this crash. It was just a mere couple of days ago, and it was excellent. Excellent piece that we'll put this in the show notes. It's called, the title is die is getting a new name, and it dump the political baggage. And that's what it's about in the opening sentences, what I want to read. So the lead says, last year, Eli Lilly's annual shareholders letter referenced the acronym for diversity, equity and inclusion 48 times this year. DEA is nowhere to be found in the letter O. [00:29:13][44.7]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:29:13] That's a stark contrast, isn't it? [00:29:15][1.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:29:15] And there are many more examples just like that in this piece. Super troubling, but it seems to be that I mean, part of this article that I'm curious about is like the society for Human Resource Management talks. It talks about, spokesperson from there, talks about this shifting this movement to emphasize inclusion the most. And I'm curious how you react to that. Tim, what do you think about, the emphasis moving toward inclusion? [00:29:42][27.2]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:29:43] Yeah. Well, it reminds me of a quote that I sometimes use in my presentations when I talk about these issues. And it's a quote by a woman named, Tonya Allen, who is a, leader in a, midwest based nonprofit organization. And she said that diversity is about counting the people, and inclusion is about making the people count. And I think it's it's important that we do foster, you know, diverse, you know, we foster diversity in the sense that, perspectives are at the table that need to be. The table. And making sure that they're not just there because they look different than all the other people, but they can actually meaningfully contribute to the conversation to improve whatever the outcomes are. In fact, there's a really great book by a gentleman by the name of Scott Page called The Difference, and it talks about the the power of diversity. So like let's, you know, let's not let the, you know, the word, the, you know, the the fact that the word is, is agitating to people all of a sudden or maybe it probably has always been agitating, but, agitating them. But now they have, the ability to say, all right, enough with this diversity word. But the point is, for lack of a better term, diversity matters and all kinds of things, and not just racial diversity or gender diversity, you know, all the different types of ways that we need to show up to have a well-rounded conversation about things that matter. And of course, we can we can look at the demographics. I mean, I already coded the the demographics within architecture, we know that 2% of architects are black and less than half percent are black women. Now, you could say, well, you know, that's fine, right? Except for the fact that if we have communities that, frankly, are so largely segregated. In fact, I grew up in a city that is one of the most segregated cities in the United States. And then Chicago, the other city where I also kind of live is like the other most segregated city. And I think about Chicago in particular, because there is a 30 year life expectancy gap from the north side of Chicago to the South side of Chicago. So on average, on the North side, at least certain zip codes, the average life expectancy is 90 years of age, which is great. But do you know what that number is on the south side? Certain zip codes. We already kind of gave it away at 60 years. So that's that's 30 years. And so when we think about the social determinants of health, one of the major components of that is the dose environment. And if we don't have architects and, you know, other professionals, then the built environment to help rebuild or strengthen or fortify these neighborhoods that have the worst health outcomes, then we're going to continue to see these kinds of disparities exist. So that's one specific example of why diversity matters. And then inclusion again, it's about making the people count, not just being a, you know, a face on a on a website. It's like, can they meaningfully contribute? And if they can't find someone who can, but also be intentional about ensuring that they represent the voices of the people that that need to be represented that otherwise would be missing. [00:32:42][178.6]
Rob Johnson: [00:32:43] But you put that so beautifully and and really it's I mean, that that's so important to consider. And I don't know that probably people listening have considered all of those factors and they're very important. So as we do this podcast, we do more than identify the problems. I think we've talked about them here and they're real. We also like to discuss solutions. So what would you say are ways to overcome this pushback that we're seeing and why companies everywhere should still make this a priority. What's your pitch there? [00:33:11][28.8]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:33:12] Yeah, I mean, I do think it's important that people understand, with numbers, the importance of what we're talking about. And so definitely, sharing that information within Scott Page's book. Again, the difference, it proves with, with stats, their graphs and, you know, obviously lots of narrative around the value of diversity in why diverse societies, schools, organizations do have better outcomes like financial. And I think most people should, should probably appreciate that because, you know, that's how the world like we live in a capitalist society and the world appreciates things that will give them more, more money in this case. And so that's, that's one thing, awareness and then specifically telling stories about how businesses have improved, you know, through intentionality around diversity and inclusion and equity. And I think, you know, I think it can be difficult when people think that Dei is about giving someone opportunity and opportunity who doesn't deserve it. But I think when you reframe it as expanding the search or making sure that the pool includes people that wouldn't necessarily have access, I think that's important fact. When I think about my all in for Noma access Leadership legacy access was about access to information helping young people, particularly K-through-12 students, know that architecture is even an option. I mean, I learned about it in a middle school art class, which I feel very fortunate to have had that experience. But as we know, many schools have taken art out of their program. So then that's completely a mistake for so many people. And then the other part of access, once you know what something is, gaining access information about even applying to architecture school, you know, knowing that you have to have a portfolio and, you know, understanding the difference between a five, 6 or 7 year pathway. And, you know, I came from a, sort of under-resourced household situation. So I actually didn't know that much about how this all worked. In fact, I only applied to one school because I didn't want to have to, like, find money for additional, application fees. And my older brother, he was like, oh, I don't think you should pursue architecture because there's not enough money in it. So thankfully I like pursued it. Anyway. And then I realized later he he was kind of right. But the point is, I was able to figure it out, but I'd like to make it easier for, you know, the next teenager, you know, like today to say, oh, actually, I can't afford to pay my bills and be an architect and create a better future. And so those are some of the things that kind of come to mind when, you know, I think about solutions like actually, you know, providing access to information and providing access to scholarships. I mean, I was a scholarship kid for sure, and that helped me to be in a position two years later, become the president of the area. And so that's that's a story that, you know, I think we could tell it, along with so many other stories of people who, you know, came from a very kind of, a background that that wouldn't necessarily lend itself to becoming an architect. It's, you know, it's a very difficult thing to pursue, but if given the right support system, you can thrive. And there aren't enough examples of that that are being told and shared so that young people will actually decide to pursue this. And then, you know, once people get into architecture school, making sure that they have the support to, to get through the program. So, I'm a big proponent of both Noma and I, because I joined Noma as a college student to enter the scene design competition, I was surrounded by mentors who were still friends and mentors of mine to this day. And and they encouraged me to join air a little bit later. And so that's kind of how all of this came to be. And so, you know, the course of the last 20 years, actually, I've now been engaged in these professional organizations because they provide support, which I truly needed. I mean, I think about two of my mentors who offered me housing, you know, during, you know, two of my summers in DC, all I had to do was like, pay for like, you know, utility bill or something. I was like, that was very accessible. And so that's why access is important. And then when I moved to New York, I stayed with another mentor's parents out on Long Island and just, you know, commuted and Sin City until I was able to get, an apartment and, and, you know, that was near to, to work. And so I think about the support that I've had. And, you know, I think it's really important that we find ways to structurally support people who otherwise would not be able to do this. [00:37:20][247.8]
Eileen Rochford: [00:37:20] One, so many lessons in there. I just you're underscoring so many things of importance. I appreciate all the examples that you've given, particularly about mentoring and looking, you know, kind of behind us to pull those forward with us. The reminder tell our listeners about why that's so critical or what I'm really hearing you say is now is not the time to stop. I don't think there ever will be a time to stop. So it doesn't matter what we choose to call it, but what we're doing needs to continue. And in fact, it needs to accelerate. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing you say. [00:37:55][35.6]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:37:56] And I will say that, let's say 100 years from now, the demographics in the US are very different. I think no matter who the person is, where they come from, what they look like, treat them well. Just be good. Like be a good human. Like that's kind of like the, the mantra, you know, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. And so don't, restrict people's opportunities because of where they come from or their gender or, you know, all the other things that I think we see that that's just like not appropriate. So like, let's just be good humans and make sure that we are treating people well. And the extent to which they, you know, need support to do a certain job, like figure out if you can support them or if, you know, maybe there's something else they can do, but, you know, find ways to foster diversity, equity, inclusion, but also, obviously meet your goals. I mean, it's a balancing act, but I think mentorship is really important. And also sometimes you have to make tough decisions, like not everyone is meant for every job that they pursue. But I think, you know, as a leader, you have to, you know, find the right cultural fit, but then also understand that sometimes, certain people will need some additional support. And, you know, we have to be nimble enough and creative enough to like final supports when you know, when we can actually make it work. And so, you know, there is no silver bullet to the, you know, to these issues where we have to have open conversations, we have to be mindful of unconscious bias. We have to in fact, my firm does unconscious bias training. And we also very heavily, emphasize mentorship. In fact, we have a firm wide mentorship program that is designed specifically to help us ensure that people are supported and their career journey. And I know that many other firms do those types of things. And the AI guides for equitable practice also prescribe many of these different types of activities for firms that really want to improve their, you know, their diversity and, and, and their, you know, more importantly, inclusion for folks who are, you know, who are at their firm who want to see a future for themselves. And, you know, frankly, we need more women and more people of color, in particular in positions of leadership, so that younger people will see a potential path for themselves. And I think that's another, area where, you know, we as a profession can do better. And I know there are other professions that probably could could grow in that area as well. [00:40:11][135.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:40:12] Excellent. I'll just mention to our listeners all of the resources that. Has mentioned. We will include links in the show notes, so you can look out for everything from the different guides on the website to, the book, the difference, the other things. I've been scribbling notes and I'll be sure to go back and include all that. Thank you. Of course. Absolutely. Well, I just want to thank you. Can really Dowdell president, president of the air. It was an absolute honor and pleasure having you on our show today. I have learned so much, and I hope our listeners do as well, when they tune in to the show. So thank you. Thank you for being with us today. [00:40:50][38.8]
Kimberly Dowdell: [00:40:51] Thanks for having me. Well, I. [00:40:52][1.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:40:52] Guess that will do it for another edition of Can You Hear Me? I'm Eileen Rochford, and if you would like to weigh in on the podcast or even give us an idea for another topic that you want us to tackle, please contact us at our new Can You Hear Me podcast page, which you can find on LinkedIn. [00:41:07][14.6]
Rob Johnson: [00:41:07] And I'm Rob Johnson. We thank you for listening and if you like this show, please consider giving us a review on any of the platforms where you can find can you hear me? That's Apple, Spotify and much more. Your reviews help other potential listeners find our show. Thanks for listening. [00:41:07][0.0]
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