What does it take to be a great leader? While that answer can be lengthy, there’s one attribute that is sometimes overlooked… humility. In a world of authoritarian C-Suite leaders, humility and vulnerability are often overlooked. In this episode of the “Can You Hear Me? Podcast, co-hosts Eileen Rochford and Rob Johnson explore Humility as a Superpower: Why Vulnerability is More Important Than Authority.
https://hbr.org/tip/2025/02/the-power-of-humble-leadership
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Eileen: Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Can You Hear Me? podcast. I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of The Harbinger Group, a marketing and strategy firm.
Rob: And I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications. For decades, the corporate playbook told executives that leadership meant having all the answers. The command-and-control model dictated that you project absolute certainty, filter out personal emotion, and mask any sign of weakness. But the modern workforce is sending out a loud and clear message that that era is over, and that message should be sent on to the C-suite.
Eileen: That's right, Rob. Today we are unpacking a paradigm shift that some traditional leaders might find terrifying, but progressive leaders are embracing as their competitive advantage. We're talking about humility as a superpower. We want to examine why vulnerability and emotional intelligence outperform rigid authority in driving business results and building trust.
Rob: And we should also say, Eileen, we are not talking about a feel-good HR trend here. There is hard data proving that leading with humility has massive public relations, internal communications, and bottom-line benefits. Why has the definition of an effective leader transformed so dramatically over the last few years? Well, look at what the workforce has been through: a global disruption, rapid technological shifts with AI, and a really big trust deficit. Employees aren't looking for a flawless superhero anymore; they're looking for an honest, human being.
Now, according to the 2024 Edelman Trust Barometer, employees expect their CEOs to be transparent and personally visible. In fact, trust is now a primary driver of employee retention and brand loyalty. When a leader acts as if they know everything, that breeds skepticism, not safety.
Eileen: That's right. And I think those trust numbers have, at least in terms of expectations of CEOs in other reports—like out of Annenberg and places like that—they just keep showing that trust is the bedrock of all communication. If you can't be humble when it comes to humility, and show those aspects or dimensions of you as a leader, it is really hard to trust you. I think that's just true in general of human relationships—I'm sure you kind of have a sense of that too, Rob—but in particular when it's people you look up to, people who you expect to lead you. I don't think that you can do that or have the ability to motivate and lead people unless there is a very strong bedrock of trust underpinning everything that you do and say.
Rob: I agree. I think it's important to realize that it felt like before COVID, there was the, "Hey, I'm a CEO, and I drive revenue," etc. And then COVID hit, and it was much more this way, where it was collaborative. It was somebody paying attention. It was somebody who was being humble. It felt like that was a real trend. And then, it felt like once COVID was well in our rearview mirror, it kind of got back to, "Do as I say." And it's nice to see, as we're sitting here in 2026, that this is a thing, that people expect it. I think it's also driven by generations as well, because younger people have different expectations for what they want out of their leaders, and more and more of them are dominating the workforce—Gen Z and millennials.
Eileen: Millennials, yeah. No doubt about it. I always look at kind of what happened to all of us back in 2020 through '21 and somewhat into 2022 during the pandemic as the great equalizer. There was no person behind the curtain anymore. We all looked the same in our home environments and on Zoom, and, you know, six months of not getting your hair colored, or your eyebrows done, or you name it. We all kind of had to just be like, "This is who we are as human beings," and it's okay to show people we work with that's who we really are.
It started something that, even with the return to office, even with a little bit more of those elements of command-and-control and ripping away some of the better benefits, it just feels like that part—there's no undoing that. Moving forward, every leader has to recognize that the carpet was pulled out from under us in that regard, and people want you to relate to them as a human being and demonstrate that humility. You'll be far more successful if you're just open to doing so. That's just my opinion again, observations from—
Rob: It's just your opinion as a CEO. That's just my opinion as a CEO, 'cause you're driving culture at The Harbinger Group.
Eileen: Yeah, you're right. You're right! And it really did force me to do things differently. Even though we were already a fully remote company, there were very hard, real conversations during that era about how life is scary. Things that you normally never brought into the workplace—there was far more real talk about how we're feeling, how we're doing, how we're coping, than I'd ever had in the workplace, no doubt. And a lot of that remains. We may not spend as much time having those conversations, but fortunately, we are far more open to it than we would have been if that hadn't happened to all of us.
Rob: So the frequency has gone down a little bit, but in your world, it's still there. And I think it should be there.
Eileen: Yeah, I agree. We totally agree on that point. It's just like I said, it was kind of like the curtain was drawn back, or the rug was pulled out, whatever you want to say. Not all of that can be undone, and not all of that should be or is bad. But there is more of a balance back in place where it's like, okay, you know, we do have to kind of tough it out. We can't stay in that place of hardship forever. We all have to move forward and find a way, you know? There's a little more of the digging deep in the last several years than there were certainly from the years '20 to '22—digging deep when things are harder. We're all getting used to it again, I would say.
Rob: Yep, yep.
Eileen: Yeah, interesting time. Well, here's another point that we can talk about in the same vein of the theme of the show: if your external brand promises empathy and innovation, but your internal culture is run by a rigid authoritarian boss, that disconnect is going to leak out eventually. There's no doubt about that.
Harvard Business School professor Amy Edmondson, who pioneered the concept of psychological safety—something we've talked about quite a bit on the show, and thankfully is talked about a lot more in the workplace than it was 10 years ago—she has proved this heavily in her research. I'm going to quote here:
"When leaders admit they don't have all the answers, it gives permission for others to speak up, experiment, and flag mistakes early."
Who doesn't want that, right?
Rob: Everybody should want that.
Eileen: Absolutely. So, if your team is too afraid of your, air quotes, "authority" to tell you that something's going wrong or a strategy is failing, you are totally flying blind, and unnecessarily so. Every single person who works in your organization could be the person who keeps you from catastrophe if you're allowing them, through your example, to feel that they can speak up. Anyone who doesn't recognize that and show a little humility that, gosh, maybe I should take 10 steps back and examine how am I conducting myself...
One of my favorite things, Rob, is in Fathom or Tactic—you name it, any of those awesome note-taking and AI assistant tools—when they show you who talked the most in each of the meetings. And it says, you know, somebody talked 72% of the time, and the 10 other people only talked the balance. Oh my god, is that enlightening! So, if you want a reality check and to recognize if you are setting the tone that you're the only person who can talk, maybe check out those meeting recaps.
Rob: They're very sobering, because it's true. I mean, there's no getting around it. It's real.
Eileen: It's data.
Rob: But it's also, I will say this on the flip side there, it is incumbent upon leaders to have created that safety that we talked about, that Amy Edmondson talks about all the time at Harvard. But, you know, if I'm in a meeting, I don't want to talk all day. If nobody's going to chime in or whatever, I'll keep talking, but I prefer others. It's about listening, asking questions, and saying, "What do you think?" and that sort of thing. It really is up to those folks to jump in, but they have to feel comfortable to jump in. So, there's the rub.
Eileen: They do. And I think it's also incumbent upon leaders to learn the techniques that invite people into conversation, and not just expect them to jump in. "Why don't they talk more? Why don't they contribute more? That's so infuriating!" Well, if they're not, then you probably haven't done a part of your job to go and learn the exploratory questioning techniques. Don't show up to every meeting with, "Here's what we're going to do." Learn how to use collaborative language. Make an effort to do that, and you'll change the entire dynamic on your team or in your whole organization, and others will model that kind of behavior.
We've talked about this as well previously on one of our shows, Rob: using exploratory questions. Just that technique alone invites people into the conversation, and doing so in a way that doesn't put them on the spot is critical, because I personally have experienced that this year. I didn't realize that my exploratory questions were a little too pointed, and it was having the opposite effect than what I wanted. One of my team members took it upon themselves to say, "Hey, I think part of this is because the reaction is that they're thinking they're supposed to have the answers and they're being put on the spot."
So I had to go and dig into this, talk to some of my mentor friends, and get better advice about how to do it where it was less like, "What do you think?"—and not that I say it that way, but that's how it was received—and became more about, "You know, I've heard you or seen you do this in your role. I'd like to hear more about what you're seeing while you're conducting that research, or outreach, or monitoring." Because these are more junior people, taking the time to learn a different way and, first of all, being open, was super sobering. I realized, well, I've got to change this. This is really not good.
So, taking the time to find out different techniques I can try and presenting the questions in a far more collaborative, experience-based way helped my team members feel like, All right, she's got me on solid ground here. This is something that I have done, and I can draw from my expertise and contribute. It became a very different dynamic, and it's stayed that way. This was months ago. And now, I look at those meeting recaps and I'm thrilled, because I'm talking like 35% of the time. It's a totally different thing. It's great.
Rob: Well, in one of the weekly meetings I have with some of your folks from The Harbinger Group, instead of surprising somebody, they know—everybody in that meeting knows—that each person has to report on something. I may have their names in parentheses or various other things, so I'm not pulling a fast one on them or surprising them. I'm also looking to talk less, to your point about Fathom and Tactic, and it seems to work. Everybody understands expectations and understands that they have to contribute in certain ways—ways, by the way, where they have expertise. It's not like I'm going to ask them something where they're like, "I have no idea." It's something that they know, but they know I need them to contribute.
Taking that a step further, the expectations that you provide, while not surprising them, let them know, "I need you to weigh in on this, you're going to weigh in on that." Everybody is going to have a way to contribute, and it feels more like a team when I'm not talking 70% of the time, to your point, but 35%. That's way better for everybody.
Eileen: Everyone, yeah.
Rob: So let's dig into these numbers a little bit more, because I know some old-school skeptics who might be listening are saying, "Oh, vulnerability, that sounds like weakness." And it is not. The data tells a really different story. A major study published in the Journal of Management on expressed humility in leadership has shown that when leaders display humility—meaning that they acknowledge their limitations, spotlight team contributions, and are open to feedback—it correlates directly with higher team engagement, better job performance, and significantly lower turnover rates.
This can't be a surprise. If you're in HR—recruitment and retention, man, that's it. You want people to enjoy the culture that they're in and see that they have a valued seat at the table.
Eileen: Yeah, you would hope that this research isn't surprising, but it may be. Again, some people are just kind of super set in their ways. But those who are doing really well today as leaders are making a habit to acknowledge contribution in particular. Nobody does anything alone, ever, no matter how great you think you are. And believe me, Rob, I think I'm pretty great.
Rob: Oh, you are. You are. I can confirm it!
Eileen: I just needed to hear it. Thank you! Yes, we all think we're great, but nobody, myself included, ever gets anywhere by themselves. So, never forget that. You don't have to do it every single day, every hour, but you should do it as often as you can when it's really meaningful. It's going to land great, and it reminds you that you're bringing people along with you, and you're being brought along, too, so much of the time.
I always say if I spend a day at my job and I haven't learned something new and surprising, then I didn't do my job really well. And it wasn't because I didn't go out and find something new, but because I didn't create an environment where a team member can bring new things to me that I get super excited about. That's not doing well, in my opinion.
This data is really interesting. I think people should also just embrace the whole "acknowledge your limitations" aspect. You know how exhausting it is to constantly think that you're the only person who can do something, and that you've got to pull it all? More and more weights are being thrown on the sled, and you're the dog pulling—that's crazy. For your own good health, recognize your limitations, but also acknowledge your team. "Here's where my expertise ends, here's the massive role you, you, and you will play in the success of this initiative." When everyone has a stake and feels like they have a role and they're contributing, the entire dynamic just changes. Everything feels so good. So, pause and just think about this. If you're falling back into old behaviors and thinking that you're the only dog pulling that sled, you're dead wrong. It's time to bring your team back into the fold.
Rob: What you're giving them, Eileen, is you're giving them hope, and you're also energizing them. Those are things that everybody needs, and again, it doesn't cost anything. It's real simple to do. Wouldn't you rather have everybody clicking on all cylinders when you know that they can? By empowering them in that way, that's what you're doing.
Eileen: Yeah. Okay, so let's recap a few ways to do what we're talking about in more practical language. It starts with changing your language. We've talked about a few of the ways to do that—exploring different ways to use your words to bring people into conversations in constructive ways where they are on solid ground.
Things like replacing, "Here's what we're going to do," with, "Here's the challenge we face, here's how I think we should approach it, and I know there are things missing here. Y'all are just as smart as I am, jump in—what needs to be on this list?" That simple phrase, "What am I missing?" invites collaboration and shows you value your team's expertise. That's step one. You have to show them that you value what they think and know they have great contributions to make to make them feel comfortable to do so.
Also, don't just share the big wins data rundown in your quarterly briefs or your town halls. Think about sharing a failure when things didn't go so great and you're sharing data that might not be what everybody wants to see. Share a time when you failed personally. "This is what happened to me, this was a really hard failure that I experienced, and here's what I learned, here's how I moved forward, and here's how it shaped how I work with you all today." Connect your own experience of failure, because then they're like, "You know what? All right, if that happened to you, and as successful as you are we're all doing pretty well, even though this quarter didn't feel great, we can get through this. This is totally doable." That's the message every great leader wants to send. When you humanize yourself, you build a bridge of connection with your workforce that just gets stronger and stronger.
Rob: And when you talk about mistakes, it's not fatal. It's just that a mistake was made. I talk to execs all the time about it. People should be able to say, "I made a mistake." I know a lot of younger workers want to show everybody how much they know, so they try to act like they never make a mistake. It's okay to make a mistake, because when you learn from those mistakes, then you don't repeat them. If you're sharing a moment where things didn't go well and what you learned from it, that ensures that you're not going to repeat that mistake again. The people that are aware of it suddenly become part of the solution. It might have been you who made it, but because you're sharing that story, they are certain to hopefully not make that mistake.
Eileen: Totally. Nobody can pretend that they haven't had failures; that's just ridiculous. The more that you lean on that and say, "You know what? I'm real, I'm human too, and why do I know what I know today? It's because I tried a million things and half of them totally failed." From every one of those experiences, I extracted some knowledge which led me to this point. Why try to hide them when you could get such valuable knowledge out of them?
Rob: And it might not even be a mistake; it might be a shift in tactics. The great thing about working on projects that aren't legacy projects created in 1950—where it's like, "Oh, we've done it the same way forever"—is that you can change your tactics. So it's not even a, "We made a mistake," it's, "Here's what we learned from going down this road, and based on intel and analytics, we're going to shift things." I always love being part of projects where it's okay to do that, and you don't have to go have 48 committee meetings about it. We can have a couple of meetings, implement it, and see how it goes.
The final thing that we're going to bring up today—there's a lot we could talk about—is prioritize active listening over active talking. The best communicators aren't the ones delivering the most booming speeches; they are the ones asking the most insightful questions and truly absorbing the answers. And yes, I'm going to promote Chapter 2 of the book, Overcommunicate. To overcommunicate, you must first listen.
We talked to Rich Jernstedt, who's a friend of the program and a longtime agency exec here in Chicago, and that is so important. Out of all the chapters that I wrote, that is the one that I spend the most time trying to implement in my own life. You do talk a lot, Rob, but why don't I ask you questions? What about you? What's going on with you? Give you a chance to do that. I really firmly believe this needs to be part and parcel of everybody's strategy when it comes to interpersonal relationships.
Eileen: No doubt about it. Because if you're not listening, you're not learning. How can you possibly learn something if you're not engaged in hearing what your teammates or others at work are bringing to the table? Closing your mouth and opening your ears is often more powerful than being the person who tries to look like they have all the answers.
Rob: It makes me a little nervous when I come across an exec who's like, "I asked questions, but I already knew the answers to all of them." I'm like, that's not really the point here. The point isn't to challenge your people and then have them give you the answer you already know. Because you're a C-suite executive, for instance, there's no way that you have the exact pulse of the organization at all times compared to those people you are asking questions of, who may be closer to the customers and the clients than you are. So if you think you know everything, take a break.
Eileen: That's right. Think again! Right?
Rob: Right.
Eileen: Okay, well, that was great. I think that's going to wrap it up for this awesome topic today. Thanks everybody for listening. I'm Eileen Rochford. If you would like to comment on our show, Can You Hear Me?, or suggest a topic, please contact us on our Can You Hear Me? LinkedIn page, where we can take your questions anytime. We love to hear from you about topics that you want to cover.
You can also check out our newsletter on LinkedIn, which has become a phenomenal recap, not just of our shows, but of related articles and resources. And that is all thanks to Olivia Solowki, who is amazing. So, we can't record a show—
Rob: She is.
Eileen: —without giving a nod to our assistant producer, Olivia. She's the best.
Rob: Oh gosh, yeah she is. We appreciate everything she does.
Eileen: That's right. And on that note, we also have to say thanks to our great audio engineer, Declan Buyer. You are the best, and we can't do the show without you either. Thank you, thank you. Both of them are—
Rob: See, expressing gratitude, showing humility... we talked about it for almost 30 minutes, and now we're putting it into practice.
Eileen: Oh, you're right! Look at that.
Rob: Look at us go.
Eileen: Look at us go. I didn't catch that.
Rob: I'm Rob Johnson. If you liked what you heard, please consider giving Can You Hear Me? a positive review wherever you get your podcasts, such as Apple or Spotify. It really does help other listeners find our podcast. And please check out our website! Yes, we have a LinkedIn page, we have all sorts of things with the newsletters as Eileen mentioned, but we have the website at canyouhearmepod.beam.ly. We'll leave that in the show notes, and we do thank you for listening.