Being a true leader can really enhance careers and provide guidance and inspiration for those they lead. But what kinds of habits and real-life experiences help people step into fearless leadership, even if it doesn’t feel natural at first? In this episode of the Can You Hear Me? Podcast, Eileen Rochford and Rob Johnson, welcome Anna Bleers, Founder of Fearless Strategic Marketing, to explain “How to Become a Fearless Leader”.
Anna has spent her entire career building brands. Her passion, insight, and desire to understand every nuance of each business she works on have resulted in close relationships and brand-defining work.
Before founding FEARLESS Strategic Marketing, she was a Client Leader at Leo Burnett for nine years and at Energy BBDO and BBDO Worldwide for nineteen years, leading North American and Global Brands.
She has worked across multiple categories and with brands at every size and stage of growth, partnering with PepsiCo Food & Beverages, Starbucks, SodaStream, KIND Snacks, Frito Lay, Procter & Gamble, MARS, Nintendo, Kohl's, Ulta Beauty, The Chicago Cubs, and more.
She has a particular passion for challenger brands, which she defines as brands with ambitions bigger than their budgets.
Anna has won every creative and effectiveness award multiple times, including Cannes Lions, Effie’s, D&AD’s, Emmy’s, Clio’s, WARC’s, and The Jay Chiat Awards.
Throughout her career, Anna has been known for being a trusted, valued, strategic advisor to the CMO and CEO, for building powerful, distinctive brands that drive long-term growth, and for creating genuine, authentic partnerships and friendships with those she works with while also having some fun along the way.
Anna lives outside of Chicago in the northwest suburbs with her husband Tom of 20 years and their three sons, Roman, 18, Leo, 17, Dominic, 14, and her dog Bandit (yes, she is outnumbered!).
Rob Johnson: [00:00:18] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the Can You Hear Me Podcast. I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications. [00:00:24][5.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:00:25] And I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the Harbinger Group, a marketing and strategy firm. We spend more than our fair share of time on this show talking about effective communication as a core leadership skill. For those who are natural leaders, it may seem second nature, but honestly it's not. [00:00:40][15.4]
Rob Johnson: [00:00:40] That is very true Eileen. No matter what kind of leader you are, introvert or extrovert, being what our guest today calls fearless leadership, being a fearless leader requires effort and introspect. So today we will explore the habits and real-life experiences that help people step into fearless leadership even if at first it doesn't feel natural. [00:00:59][18.1]
Eileen Rochford: [00:00:59] And we have enlisted the help of the perfect expert for this discussion. Her name is Anna Blears. She is a longtime agency veteran who recently founded her own firm called Fearless Strategic Marketing. And today we are going to dive into how to become a fearless leader. Anna, welcome. Thanks for being here with us today. [00:01:18][19.0]
Anna Bruno Bleers: [00:01:18] Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here with you, Eileen and Rob. [00:01:23][4.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:01:23] Well, we're so excited because we talk a lot about marketing. We talk a lot about communication, but this is a topic that we haven't really touched on for, and I'm really excited, but before we begin discussing this meaty subject, why don't you give our listeners your background, your origin story? [00:01:37][14.1]
Anna Bleers: [00:01:38] Sure. Well, I spent the first almost 30 years of my career working in advertising. I spent the first, almost nine years at Leo Burnett. I started off, I was a graduate of Marquette University. I went to Marquett with Eileen. That's how I've met Eileen, and I was a communications and English major. And I was communications major that doesn't exist anymore. But it was a kind of a sample major where I had a little bit of advertising, a little bit of journalism, a little bit of PR, a little bit of broadcast, which was great for people who didn't know what they wanted to do, but it didn't really push you in any direction. And I had some amazing mentors, a family that I used to babysit for, and they had their own agency called Powers Advertising. And they gave me a great opportunity right out of school, and I started working with them. And I always tell young people when I work with them, you know, grab any opportunity that your way. And it was a great opportunity. And that's where I learned all about advertising. And, you know, they showed me the ropes. It was a small agency, I got to learn everything. And that's why I got my start. And I learned also how to network and I went to every single networking opportunity there was and I always again tell young people that was when networking was. Handing your business cards and following up with phone calls and in person meetings. And through that, I got my first opportunity at Leo Burnett and started off on the Procter& Gamble account and spent nine years there and learned a tremendous amount. And then from there went to Energy BBDO, and at Energy BBDo, which was the Chicago offering of BBDO which was part of BBDo worldwide and part of the Omnicom global marketing agency. I worked on everything from global businesses like, you know, Mars. Bayer Consumer Care, PepsiCo on both the food and the beverage side to startup businesses like KineSnacks and Kerrygold and help them grow. And I worked on food and beverage, retail, fashion, beauty, insurance, you name it, and I worked at it. But the agency world was changing and evolving and it's still changing really rapidly today and in 2024 with all those changes. I made the decision to separate from BBDO and had to figure out what was next. And that's when fearless strategic marketing was born. I discovered the world of fractional marketing, and I was able to use my skills as a client leader and apply them to my own business. And I decided that it would be a chance for me to be an entrepreneur and build my own business. And I like to say that I help my clients out smart versus outspend their competition. And when I thought about all the experiences I had, I loved working with what I call challenger brands, which are brands whose ambitions are greater than their competitors. And that's where outsmarting versus out-spending comes into play. And so I help them build bold marketing strategies, leveraging brand that is built around what matters to consumers. And that's the critical part of A big mistake a lot of brands make is thinking only about the brand versus what matters to consumers and being really thoughtful about what's important to them in their lives. And that's what I do with my brands that I work on today. [00:05:23][225.1]
Eileen Rochford: [00:05:23] Fantastic, excellent introduction, thank you. Okay, and I love the plug from Marquette, you're the best, way to go. [00:05:29][5.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:05:30] Opportunity for that never reached out yet Eileen to you and promoting us on almost every podcast. [00:05:38][8.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:05:38] Sponsor or something? Okay, so we are here to talk about and that you have inspired this entire conversation. So we're here to talked about how to become a fearless leader. Let's get a little bit of context first before we really just jump in the deep end. Can you tell us what does this concept of fearlessness mean to you personally? And why do you want to be fearless? Why should anybody want to [00:06:06][28.6]
Anna Bleers: [00:06:12] become one? Yeah, well, when that you know, I was thinking a lot about building my own company. And again, I'm a brand person through and through, you know I took an approach that I would take with my own clients as I was building my on brand. So of course, I did, you don't competitive audit. So I went out there on LinkedIn, and I started looking at everyone out there who was a brand consultant and working in marketing and a fractional leader. And I had an immediate observation. Wow, there were a lot of companies out there and a lot individuals out there that looked exactly alike. And so immediately I thought, wow, I have to build a very distinctive brand. And then the other observation that I had when I was reflecting on my own experiences working with clients is that, one of the biggest frustrations I had were clients who were making decisions. And I thought a lot about why weren't they making decisions, what were holding them back. Um, and you know, when I was thinking and replaying those meetings over and over, um, I had this aha epiphany moment that it was really fear. And it was one of those things that it was the elephant in the room that no one was talking about. You know, what they were saying is that, you know it was budgets or we weren't having the right people in the room or maybe the creative concept wasn't right or let's rethink the strategy, but the reality was it was fear that was holding people back. And I'm a data person, right? So, you know, I first thought, well, is this a theory, or is this reality? So I started doing a lot of research. And then the more research that I did, the more I found that this was actually a reality. This wasn't a theory. There was a lot of data that was done. And there's been a lot a research that has gone into that that has that fear is actually what holds people back. Fear gets in the way of creativity, fear gets in way of innovation. The World Health Organization actually studied this and they found that fear, depression, and anxiety cost the global economy an estimated one trillion. A year in lost productivity. And so I was like, wow, I'm actually onto something. And so, you know, I decided, wow. This is actually something sticky. This is something I could actually help clients with. And this is number one, the thing that gets in the way of creativity, innovation and business decisions. And so I decided this is what I was going to be focusing on, especially if, you know, a new bold strategy is what works and builds brands. And So I decided fearless is what it was going to be because I know fearless was what works. And then what I didn't realize at the time is that it was also going to be something that was going hold myself accountable. He goes, you know, when you name your own company, fearless, you've got to be fearless, which I didn't realize at the time that, you know, it was going to walk that walking. [00:09:10][178.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:09:09] Walk every day, don't you? [00:09:11][1.0]
Anna Bleers: [00:09:10] Exactly. It was going to make me fearless. So there's a lot of moments that I have really every single day when, you know, I don't want to wake up and I don t want to be fearless or I have a moment where someone tells me no, or I ha ve a failure. And you know when you are calling yourself fearless, then you do have to hold yourself accountable and you do ha ve to act fearless. And it s made me better and it s me more strategic and it's made me more fearless. It holds myself accountable and it makes me hold my clients accountable. It was both a- [00:09:40][30.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:09:40] inspired and perhaps a subconscious decision. Yeah, exactly. You wanted that accountability. Exactly. [00:09:46][5.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:09:47] And you got it. And you've got it! Well, so let's put this in the context of business. How does being a fearless leader apply to companies and organizations where you aptly pointed out a minute ago that people just sometimes don't make those decisions and waste millions and billions and trillions of dollars on that indecision? What does it mean? [00:10:04][17.6]
Anna Bleers: [00:10:05] What does it mean to act like a fearless leader? Yeah, well, number one, you need to build courage through action and behavior. It's really important to walk that walk, as we were just talking about. And so you have to actually, you know, every single day, make decisions that are fearless, and you have to make sure your behavior is fearless. And you also have to communicate that direction. So it's not enough just to do it behind closed doors, but you also have to communicate those decisions out to the organization. You have to trust your instincts and use your voice. And that means you're navigating self-doubt. We all have that inner critic inside, that inner voice that's kind of telling us, you know, it's not real, you know, that self doubt. But you have to find that inner confidence and that inner and overcome that self-doubt. And learn how to, you know, over edit yourself and overcome and listen to your confidence and make those decisions. You have to let go of playing it safe and lean into some risk. You know, playing it's safe is actually the riskiest thing that you can do. When you play it safe, you're doing exactly what's been done before. And especially when it comes to marketing, that's just not good enough. You're being held to results and we're in a landscape. That is changing and evolving every day. When you're trying to drive growth, doing the same thing that's been done before isn't driving growth. So you have to evolve, you have change, and you have innovate. And that often means doing something that hasn't been done before, that's pushing yourself and that's evolving. And so yes, that means some risk and innovation. You have to lead with authenticity. You have communicate like a real human. You know, not, you know, I always say don't talk with marketing speak because that's not how real human beings talk. In other categories, you know, a lot of times people start talking with a lot of technical jargon. You know, I remember in one of my first meetings with Procter and Gamble, people were using so many acronyms. I was like, I don't even know what's going on here. It evolves into a completely different language, right? So how can you connect and communicate at like a human level, right. And that's how you can actually create relationships and have a human presence with one another. You need to set boundaries with clear expectations, right? Protect energy and have honest conversations early and throughout the process. And that is how you keep resentment from festering in or burnout from setting in. You have to allow your behavior to inspire boldness in others and then create that amongst the team and then in the wider team itself. [00:13:00][175.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:13:01] Anna, is this a top-down? Is this solely the responsibility of the CEO or is it anybody in the C-suite? And how do you manage that so you may be looking for your overall leader to be setting strategy and they may be paralyzed by fear? But what could you do as somebody who's having those meetings and those discussions about kind of breaking that chain of that? That probably doesn't have a simple answer, but I was just thinking about it from a… Is it really one person going top down, or is it everybody that sits up there in the leadership roles, is it incumbent upon all of them? [00:13:34][32.8]
Anna Bleers: [00:13:34] It's incumbent upon everybody. It can't just be a top down. You need to spread it throughout the entire organization. The top has the most influence and they have the ability to spread it more quickly than everybody. And if it doesn't start with the top, it won't spread. But it's an incumbent on everybody in the organization. And so, you know, if you start at the top, then it will spread, but you need all of the layers to tackle it on and to behave in this way for it to spread throughout the entire organization itself. And you want it to be behavior, which everyone takes on. And you wanted to be part of the organizational values. It can't just live within one person. It's got to be a part of how the organization behaves. Totally makes sense. [00:14:17][43.8]
Eileen Rochford: [00:14:17] So, are there other significant themes attached to fearless leadership that you'd like to bring into the conversation, Anna? I'm just curious if there's a couple other things you want to toss in here into the mix before we really get into it. [00:14:32][15.0]
Anna Bleers: [00:14:33] Well, I mean, I think there's ways to become a fierce leader, but it's also you have to recognize when people are behaving in fear based ways. Yeah, because when that behavior exists, you have To recognize that behavior and talk about that behavior, and find a way to address that behavior. Because there's in you know, acting in the in a fearless way and getting that to spread and build within the organization. But there's also identifying the fear based behaviors, discussing it and trying to stop those behaviors, which is equally important. You have to understand it before you can change. Yes, exactly. Because when people are behaving in fear based ways that can create huge problems and stop. [00:15:20][47.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:15:22] Probably true that people don't really understand that that's what's holding them back or kind of constricting their ability to make their decisions. Fear is a very difficult thing to identify, unless there's a tiger about to pounce on you. Then you know that's fear. That's pretty obvious, right? But in the business context, you probably don't know because a lot of us put on of our, you know, powerful leader face when we walk in to work, right? And there's this persona that you're supposed to embody in the workplace that many, many people, I mean, still try to do. And it's just, it's natural. But that being the case, what does fear in the workplace kind of look like that to help people start to identify? Oh, gosh, maybe that's really what it is. And I should take a step back and be more honest with myself. Absolutely right and [00:16:12][50.6]
Anna Bleers: [00:16:13] Eileen, I want to go back to something that you said, because there are two types of fear. There is the fight or flight fear that comes from your amygdala or your reptilian part of the brain, right? That is your fight or fight. And that is what keeps us alive. And that it's all about survival and that is ingrained in us and is critical for our survival. And it's part of why we're all alive here. And then there is the socialized fear that has been taught in us, right? And that is all about, again, socialization and experiences. And those are fears that are reactionary base, and those are fears that you can control and overcome. And those are also fears that can control us and become greater than us and take the driver's seat. And those are the fears that we're talking about. Okay. [00:17:09][56.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:17:10] Give us some examples of these socialized fears. I get where you're going, but I really want to understand it fully. Yeah. [00:17:15][5.3]
Anna Bleers: [00:17:16] So, so fight or flight is a reaction to life or death situations, a tiger exactly you immediately react and there's nothing you can do about that okay, where socialization is fear over. Maybe you see. You know, something on the on the ground, and you're not sure what it is. And you know everybody has a different reaction to that. That's a socialized fear, you know. Someone can say, Oh, that's actually nothing to be afraid of. That's just a little spot on the wall. You might think it's a snake, but it's really not. It's just a little dot. And see if you come a little closer and you touch it. Look, it's just a little squiggly line. It's not a fear. See, there's nothing to react to. And you can be talked through it and talked out of it. And you can see that that's a socialized fear versus a tiger is coming at you and has fangs, it's going to rip you apart. You have two seconds to get out of there. Are you? Yeah. Right. So, so those are the two different kinds of fear. Okay. So, what are behaviors when people are behaving in a fear-based way, especially in a work setting? Number one, hesitation in decision-making. We talked about that even earlier. And one of the things, too, that gets in the way is that people often don't say what's really going on. People mask the behavior, so they call it other things. So they may not make the decision, but they don't say why they're not making the decision. They will say it's for other reasons. Constant second guessing. So, or just complete perfectionism. So we're not going to make a decision because or we will make a decision when it becomes perfect, but it will never be perfect and it will ever get there. So the decision will never been made. Avoidance. So will never get all the people in the meeting or avoidance of change. We are never going to do this. If it's not exactly the way it was or avoidance of innovation, which you can see, especially with marketing or creativity, how that can be a huge problem, completely reactive leadership versus proactive leadership, unclear speech, vague speech, or avoiding key or important topic. So those are some of the telltale signs of fear-based behaviors. But you can see how all of those get in the way of leadership and decision-making and change. [00:20:04][168.0]
Rob Johnson: [00:20:04] So, you've clearly identified these spheres, what they are, right? [00:20:08][4.8]
Anna Bleers: [00:20:08] And much of this is based off of research, too, I want to add. So yeah. [00:20:11][3.1]
Rob Johnson: [00:20:13] So identifying them is one thing, and you may be sitting here rattling them off and everybody says, people listening say, oh yeah, I've seen that before, I have experienced that before. How do you put aside those fear-based behaviors that you've so eloquently told us about to How do you get over that hump, as it were? [00:20:33][19.5]
Anna Bleers: [00:20:33] Yes, yes. So there are some great tools on how to stop those behaviors and move forward in a very productive way. Because that's a key thing, right? Everyone has outcomes they're trying to achieve and decisions they're tying to make. So one option is first be clear, specific, and direct. Try to pinpoint the conversation to a specific goal. Have an open dialog and really listen to what they're trying to say. A lot of times people have a fear of not being listened to and feel like their point is not being communicated. So if you clearly listen to them and let them articulate, they may be able to get into a productive dialog with them. Diffuse and don't judge them. And then often you can get into productive dialog. Tell me more about diffuse. What's a good example of how to diffuse? So a lot of times people feel like there's just a reaction being so their opinion is being met with an immediate reaction versus you're diffusing, not reacting, and getting into a discussion. So they're not being immediately judged. You're getting into a discussion [00:21:42][68.8]
Eileen Rochford: [00:21:42] Yeah, that the urge to react is so strong, isn't it? Yes. So kind of converting that into a productive dialog. Yeah, or receiving, like as you stressed and everybody else, you should all be doing a hell of a lot more listening. There's no doubt about it. [00:21:57][14.7]
Anna Bleers: [00:21:57] Exactly. So you're like receiving, you're listening, and you're allowing it to kind of all come down. [00:22:03][5.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:22:04] I was thinking about this subject, Anna, when I knew we were going to be talking about it on the podcast. And I thought to myself, have I had fear? What kind of fear have I had? And then I realized maybe early on in the entrepreneurial journey, and as I talk to a lot of other young or aspiring or new entrepreneurs, and they say, make it till you make it, I feel like there's a little bit sometimes of an imposter syndrome before you've really gotten in and have done that work in a more, in a deep kind of way. How do you overcome that and just say to yourself, I am good enough. I am the right person at the right time for this job. How do, how do you do that? [00:22:41][36.3]
Anna Bleers: [00:22:41] Well, I think, you know, it's okay to not know all the answers. No one is expecting you to know all the answers. So number one, I think it's be okay with what you know. Be okay with who you are. I think the minute you start clinging to Oh, my gosh, I've got to know everything or are they going to find me out? That's when you start getting into defensive mode, right? That's what you get into imposter mode. And that's when we start getting into that fear based reactionary behavior, where then you're defensive, and you're afraid of people finding me out versus, hey, you know what I mean, I'm okay with what I know, and I'm OK with what I don't know. And I'm here to bring and have a good conversation. And you know, it's okay with what I don't know. I'll find out those answers, or we'll work together and we'll figure out a solution. But that's a very different way to enter in a conversation with, okay, I'm going to come in with what i know. And what if they find out what I don't? No, I am ruined, right? You're coming in then with a very right, right, but but but then you're coming in with a sense of calmness and a sense of safeness versus a sense of I'm coming in and oh, my gosh, I don't want them to find me out. Right. Right. Yeah. And it's a. [00:23:55][74.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:55] It's just a very different emotional space. It totally is. One thing I used to do, because I know you guys are, well, you're totally new at the being a consultant entrepreneur, Ana, Rob, you are not that new, but not anymore. [00:24:10][14.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:24:11] When I was, somebody was looking out for me. Thank you. [00:24:13][2.1]
Eileen Rochford: [00:24:14] You're very sweet. It was, you know, 23 years ago, I think, when I started this organization, I was really young. And I also had like a face that looked even younger than I actually was. So those things did not always help, you know, for credibility when I was typically in boardrooms. And so I would say I'd make myself say, because I had a lot of fear and a lot of anxiousness and, you know, like my family's, you know, well, livelihood was on the line, literally. So I would make myself say what What are you afraid of? Like in the mirror before I would go or like, you know, days ahead when I was preparing for a big presentation, I was like, What are your afraid of, I'm afraid I'm gonna forget where I am in my presentation. What do you do about if that happens? See what I'm saying? It was a great exercise. And yeah, I don't have to do it as much anymore, but I still do have to do it occasionally. Yeah. So maybe that's something that people could do to just name it, you know, name it claim that as they say, yeah, yeah. [00:25:08][54.0]
Anna Bleers: [00:25:09] Well, and that was going to be my next point is like, just creating an environment of safety and calm, you know, and by doing that, you can bring down the fear and the other person. And it is really powerful to say, like, it's okay to not know, or it's OK to feel fear. And I used to say that in creative meetings, a lot of times to my clients, like, It's OK, because it's ok to feel scared. It's ok, to feel fear. It is our to bring creative ideas that no one's ever seen before. That means it's a really powerful idea. I love that. Uncomfortableness is part of the creative process. Exactly. And that means we're doing our job. [00:25:50][41.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:25:50] Leaving that comfort zone for sure. [00:25:52][1.3]
Anna Bleers: [00:25:52] Yeah, very good. Another another path is, you know, being okay with moving forward without an agreement, sometimes okay to agree to disagree and tabling for the next meeting. Sometimes it's just okay to sit without an agreement and say, let's just say, we're going to sit with this for now, and come back to this in the next discussion. Don't rush it exactly. Um, also talk to everyone about, you know, committing to constructive behavior. You know, if you're seeing that we're divulging in deconstructive behavior, kind of giving everyone a bit of a grown up timeout and saying, Hey, we're going to stop the conversation right now because we're going into not constructive behavior. And then let's Let's just stop the conversation and let's all agree that we're going to come back together and have a follow through discussion and people can can sit and again sit on the discussion. And then I'm going to borrow something from Mel Robbins that I think is really powerful because again, when emotions are heightened, that's where fear takes over. And she has something called the five second role, which is you stop, you talk backwards from five, and you then stop allowing emotion or fear to take over. And just by the simple act of just stopping and counting to five, you can allow like rational thought versus fear to take over. And it's like, again, giving yourself a little bit of a timeout and then coming back to the conversation. [00:27:29][97.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:27:29] And interrupting, you know, the kind of pathways of your brain for a minute is exactly really important to because you can get entrenched in that pretty quick. The brain likes it. Yeah, exactly. These are such good. [00:27:41][11.7]
Rob Johnson: [00:27:42] These are great reminders. And that final point was really important too. I mean, the adult timeout, we could all use it. Anna Blears, founder of Fearless Strategic Marketing. We thank you so much for joining us. [00:27:53][11.2]
Anna Bleers: [00:27:53] Oh, thank you so much for having me on. It was so much fun speaking with both of you, Rob and Eileen. This was such a pleasure. I really appreciate it. [00:28:01][7.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:28:01] Well, this is something that we, as I said earlier, we haven't tackled before. So this is, uh, it's just fascinating to hear you talk about it and to have built your whole agency, your own, um, um agency around here, fearless. I it's wonderful. [00:28:15][13.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:28:15] Yep, purelessness. I love it. We've given us some awesome food for thought. And I'm sure there's more we could dig into in the future if you'd like to come back. Oh, I would love to. Thank you both so much. [00:28:26][11.2]
Rob Johnson: [00:28:27] Much. We will talk about it. [00:28:28][1.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:28:28] Yes, we would. Yes, me would. Okay. [00:28:30][1.9]
Rob Johnson: [00:28:30] That's going to do it for this episode of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson. If you'd like to comment on the podcast or suggest a topic, please contact us at our Can You Hear Me podcast page or subscribe to the Can You hear Me newsletter. Both can be found on Think 10. [00:28:43][13.2]
Eileen Rochford: [00:28:43] Thanks, everybody. I'm Eileen Rothschild. If you liked what you heard today on Can You Hear Me, please consider giving our show one of your reviews on whatever platform you've utilized for your podcast, like Apple, Spotify, and the like, because your reviews help other listeners find us. And that's really what we want to do. We want to reach as many people as we can. So thank you for considering that. And I have a really exciting closing remark. Yeah, I don't think we've mentioned before. We have one more place that you can Check out more great information from guests like Anna and many of our former guests. And a little bit from me and Rob too that goes outside of what you hear on the podcast. We have a brand new website. So, can you hear me? Pod.beam.ly, and we'll put the address, of course, in the show notes, but it's a brand-new website. We're really excited about it. Yeah, so another, you know. Step forward for the Can You Hear Me fun that we do here on the show. [00:29:41][57.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:29:41] Another way to engage. [00:29:42][0.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:29:42] Yeah, absolutely. Okay, guys. Thanks very much. Until next time. [00:29:42][0.0]
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