Being a business leader is an inherently stressful job. They make multiple daily decisions that will impact their teams, employees, customers, and bottom lines. Given the current economic uncertainty in the world, the pressure can be magnified. Join Can You Hear Me podcast co-hosts Rob Johnson and Eileen Rochford as they welcome Jennifer Jones, CMO of Tidi Products, to discuss How Leaders Navigate Through Stressful Times.
Jennifer Jones, Chief Marketing Officer at TIDI Products, brings over 20 years of experience in the Medical Device industry, spanning a variety of sales and marketing roles. At her core, Jennifer is a marketer—but over the years, she’s discovered her true passion lies in developing leaders. While many view leadership as a natural extension of technical expertise, she believes it is a distinct skill that requires intentional practice and consistent application. Today, leadership development is the cornerstone of her work. Jennifer leads a talented team of more than 50 professionals across product marketing, marketing communications, business development, and new product development. Her mission is to equip and empower leaders who will make a lasting impact in healthcare.
To extend her reach, Jennifer launched a podcast—Virtual Leadership Coffee Chat with JJ—offering practical, actionable leadership advice. She believes that by getting to know your people, staying organized, listening to understand, asking before telling, and leading with humility, leaders can unlock limitless potential.
Outside of work, Jennifer enjoys life with her husband of nearly 19 years and their 8-year-old son. She supports her husband’s role as Music Director at their local church, cares for more than 100 plants, reads avidly, and builds elaborate Lego sets.
Rob Johnson: [00:00:18] Hello everyone and welcome to Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson, President of Rob Johnson Communications. [00:00:23][4.8]
Eileen Rochford: [00:00:24] I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the Harbinger Group, a marketing and strategy firm. You listen to Can You Hear Me regularly. You know that we love to take meaningful looks at the pressures business leaders face and the strategies they rely on to solve their problems. Right now, given the pressures that our C-suite executives are facing because of the economic uncertainty that we have going on in the world, those pressures are so much bigger. They're horrible. [00:00:51][26.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:00:51] They really are, and so we were thinking, how do we dig into this and take a meaningful look at it? And I think we have a great plan today. So how do these leaders navigate through stressful times? Fortunately, our guest today has more than a few ideas on the topic. She is Jennifer Jones, Chief Marketing Officer at TIDI Products, a Wisconsin-based medical equipment manufacturer. Jennifer Jones! JJ, as she is known. What? [00:01:14][23.0]
Jennifer Jones: [00:01:14] What's happening? Yay! [00:01:16][1.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:01:16] Thanks for joining us today. We appreciate it. [00:01:18][2.1]
Jennifer Jones: [00:01:18] Thanks for having me. Thanks for havin' me. [00:01:19][1.6]
Rob Johnson: [00:01:19] Gosh, it's our pleasure. Well before if we before we get to the meat of the discussion Sure, why don't you give the listeners a little bit about your background origin story how you got to where you are? [00:01:30][10.6]
Jennifer Jones: [00:01:30] Yeah, no, great, great. Thanks again, thank you so much for having me excited for the time today. So as Rob mentioned, I'm chief marketing officer here at TIDI Products. I've been here for almost nine years. Prior to that, I spent several years with other med device organizations like Beckton Dickinson, CareFusion, Cardinal Health. So deep med device experience. Started my career as a sales rep and eventually moved into marketing. And quite honestly, I've never looked back. It was a great transition in my career. And I always often tell people that while I'm a marketer by function, I'm really a developer of leaders by, like, that's my passion project. And so I think what I really realized, like probably mid my career was I really like marketing because it kept me connected to the end user of our products. And so being able to spend time with customers, especially in the healthcare environment was extremely rewarding. But as I transitioned into different levels of leadership, it really became clear to me that really where I think I kind of came alive was really developing other leaders. I think there is a major deficit in leadership across all sectors. And I think it's often because like really high potential individual contributors are promoted into roles as leaders without a lot of training and or support through that process. And that's where leadership kind of falls apart. And so my like life's project and life's work has been how might I make an influence by the people I get the opportunity to lead to to make them be the better leaders I go to a leadership conference every year and Craig Rochelle often says that when the leader gets better everyone gets better and so I believe that if we can make that impact and in leaders that are developing we can impact the world so that's my origin story origin story and I'm pretty excited and proud of the path that I've been on thus far. [00:03:18][107.8]
Eileen Rochford: [00:03:18] That is phenomenal. You just took the whole role of counseling as a communications counselor to, you know, the C-suite to like the whole new stratosphere. Yeah, that's great. It's totally not just about what you say, but it's how your function as a leader and viewing yourself in that way is so unique and original. And should I call you JJ? Because I don't know. Of course, we're friends. We are friends, for sure. For sure. Welcome. That's just great. I love it. I don't there are many marketers out there who have that philosophy. [00:03:52][33.6]
Jennifer Jones: [00:03:54] I mean, I think, listen, I mean I think marketers, it's a very unique skill set. Folks ask me sometimes like CMOs are actually one of the folks that turn over the most in executive seats and I get asked the question why and I think often it's because, you know, every marketer has their own kind of flavor of marketing. How I do it, how I go translate voice of customer into insights, all those things. And so if they happen to join an organization that ascribes to their philosophy, they tend to stay longer. I think if they don't. There's a lot of turnover. And I think what's interesting about the marketing seat, which I think maybe folks miss, is that because you're like, I always tell people that marketing is like the spoke in the middle of the wheel. We have this power to influence, but not necessarily direct control of all functions in the organization. So in order to be a really impactful leader, you have to have influence. And if marketers don't recognize that that is a critical component of being a marketer and being a leader, I think they fall short. And so I think sometimes we're so focused on. Voice of customer and translating that insights and launching a product and not recognizing that our role as a leader that's driving influence to deliver value for the company. And so maybe marketers don't see themselves often as leaders in that regard. But the reality is in the organization they're in, they are the leaders. Like you own the voice of customers and that's the only way companies can continue to generate value. And so I think that's, it's a miss if they don't recognize their leadership. [00:05:20][85.4]
Rob Johnson: [00:05:20] You know, before we dive in a little deeper, you just pointed out something really important, which was the role of the marketer and coming and trying to put his or her stamp on. Know how the branding and how the messaging is happening. But I know you also believe because of the longevity you've had and because of your passion for developing other people, a reason that say a CMO wouldn't get that opportunity to really think about professional development and how to develop those people is because they don't stay around long enough and you've had the benefit of doing so and it's dovetailed perfectly into what your passion is. [00:05:52][31.4]
Jennifer Jones: [00:05:52] Yeah, I think, I mean, it's interesting you say that, Rob, I mean, if I look at my leadership team, with the exceptional one, they all have progressed through the ranks underneath, you know, in my tenure with the organization. And so, and it's really been about developing their skill set to position them to lead their various functions. And, so, you think, again, if in the seat that I'm in, I don't see it as I'm going to be the marketer is going to put my flavor on TIDI. But it's like, how do I support and equip the folks that are quite frankly, closest to the work? I tell my team all the time, listen, I'm asking you all to do things that I never did as a product marketer, right? When I was a product, our sales channel was our kind of communication to the market was through the sales team. Well, now there's like this digital marketing thing, like we didn't even have a website when I was product market, right. And so I'm asking them to learn and optimize SEO. I'm ask them to do social campaigns. I never did social. So really my job is to support and equip them and clear the way so they can do great work. And so again, as a CMO, because most of us are so far removed of the day-to-day of product management and quite frankly, the day to day of the advances in marketing. We have to recognize that our job is to clear the way so great work can happen, which means that we support and equip the team that's closest to the work. And I think that's where the longevity comes in because now you get on this cycle where you're like, I just wanna see the company continue to improve. And so I think it's just a little bit of a maybe different purview for me. [00:07:22][89.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:07:22] Yeah. Oh, that's great. Okay. So we came here with a specific intent. Let's get to it, guys. Sure. We have established how challenging it is to be a leader any given day or any given year, I should say. But right now, what are some of the things executives need to focus on to keep their teams pointed in the right direction during these super tough times? There's challenges [00:07:46][23.8]
Jennifer Jones: [00:07:46] Yeah, so I think a couple things. One, Eileen, listen, unfortunately, we've had like a season of trying times, right? And I think it all began with COVID when all of us were sent home. And had to figure out how to lead remotely, right? And while we were personally navigating through all of the uncertainty in our personal lives and then having to lead a team when companies were going through uncertainty and all the chaos that ensued. And I think one of the things that I learned in that timeframe was the power of communication. I think oftentimes, you can respond better when you know what's happening, when you're getting the communication necessary. I think right now about tariffs, right? So, you know, that's the current pressure on businesses right now. You know, from day one, we, including the entire leadership team, have been very overt about our point of view on the tariffs, how it's gonna impact our business, and the things that are like off the table, right. So we have been clear, like, some companies are looking at, you, know, addressing tariffs by laying people off. That's not the strategy we're gonna take. We've been very over it about that. Um some folks are looking at changing manufacturing sites we're not we're choosing not to do that we've been very overt about that so i think through this process um we have continued to be very transparent and i think if if companies did not learn during covid that we have a population of employees that require transparency it was a miss mislearning you create more more um chaos and uncertainty when you're not transparent of the process. I think the other dynamic is I think you also have to be authentic at this stage, right? And recognize that the pressures that you're experiencing personally are the same pressures that your people are experiencing and probably to a greater extent because they don't have the full view of what's happening in the company. You know, I just came off of a retreat with my team and one of the sections, when I closed out the talk, I talked about self-care. And I just acknowledged that it was, this is a hard time that we're in, it's fiscally, It's it's uncertain. If you're raising children, it's uncertain. If you have aging parents, all these things are uncertain right now. And that's a lot of pressure. And I literally could see people tearing up in the room. So that just meant that like, that is what people are wrestling with. But if you as a leader ignore that, you don't give people a safe space to be their authentic self. [00:10:12][145.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:10:13] That's really important and Eileen, I know that you subscribe to that theory as well and you've been talking about it for years, making sure that the people around you are, you know, are doing okay mental health-wise. So I know it's something that you care deeply about as well. Well, at our core, Can You Hear Me is a program where we focus heavily on using effective communication to solve issues in the C-suite. So you talked about it a little bit about just sort of, it feels like real self-awareness and what's going on around me and that sort of thing, but how do you think leaders like yourself need to view the communication process? Not too long ago, there was a lot of top-down communication where everybody took orders from above. These days, the leaders who are successful understand it's a two-way exercise and they're a little bit better engaged. Is that something that, aside from the paying attention to others, is it also, hey, I don't have all the solutions and I don t need to be having these folks be order-takers. I need them to be giving me actionable, good advice so that I can make the best decisions for our marketing department. [00:11:14][61.0]
Jennifer Jones: [00:11:15] 100%. Listen, it is disrespectful as a leader to assume that at the top, the farthest person away from the customer, you have all the answers. Period. It's disrespectful. If I think about projects that are ensuing in my organization right now, I've not spent 40 hours at the customer observing how the product is being used bedside. They have. So for me to assume that my experience bedside way before COVID even happened, I won't say how many years before, is the same as it is today is disrespectful. Okay. So I think first and foremost, as a leader, my job is not to give orders because how can you give orders when you're not in the room when it's happening? Right. So I think that's one part. I think the second part though, is that what is also disrespectful and a little bit of you are shirking on your responsibility as a leader. Is that you're not spending time with the team in what I call sausage making, to understand how they're translating what they're, the insights they've gleaned into actions. Because again, while I've not been, I wasn't in the room where it's happened, I've got decades of experience on the folks that work for me. So my job is to go into the room when they're having these conversations and help ask the right questions. To help expand their thinking beyond what they saw. So as a leader, I think to not be engaged in the work, to not respect the inside of those that are closest to the work is, quite frankly, Disrespectful. And it's limiting. If my 50 plus people are waiting on me to tell them what to do, we are gonna do like 5% of what's possible for this organization to do. So again, that's why I always tell people like, my purpose as a leader is not to do the work, it's just to clear the way so they can do great work. And because of where I sit, because of the experience I have, I might be able to clear away a lot quicker than they could on their own. But I only know that if I'm in the room when it's happening, when they are in the sausage-making trying to take what they've learned and do something about it. So, yeah, I mean, it is 100% a two-way street. And this is where servant leadership comes into play. Again, I think about this retreat I just got back from, that entire agenda was built by them. It was a feedback off of the last retreat that we had to say, this is what I wish we could do to make it better. And that's how we built the agenda. And let me tell you one thing better. I didn't run, I didn't build the agenda, the team did. All I did was to create the space for them to be able to do it. That's your job as a leader. [00:13:46][151.4]
Eileen Rochford: [00:13:46] That's great. I could ask you a million questions about that. I'm sure I could. [00:13:52][5.4]
Jennifer Jones: [00:13:52] It was fast. It was amazing. It was so amazing. I enjoyed every moment. [00:13:55][3.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:13:56] So I'm not going to derail us, but I can't, my curiosity is too strong. I have to ask. Yeah. So they created the agenda and was there, was there any kind of direction setting before the agenda was created or was it, you know, I know you said it was built off of a prior, but was it how blank really was that canvas? [00:14:13][17.1]
Jennifer Jones: [00:14:13] Yeah, great question, Eileen. So I told them two things. I said, one, the purpose of this is we're 50 plus people that are fully remote, and this is an opportunity for a day and a half for people to get back together. So let's make sure we create the space for connection. That was one. The second thing I said to them is one of the areas that I'm focusing on advancing the chops of my team is systemic thinking. How do you really understand the interconnectedness of everything so that we can make the right decisions for the customer? And so I said, let's couch the content in systemic thinking. And that was it, that was all. And they went and did that from there. Well, that's. [00:14:48][34.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:14:48] Phenomenal. They're obviously very great people to be able to take in that minimal guidance and done something meaningful with it. So system, pardon me, systemic thinking is pretty complex. So it is very complex. I mean, I'm totally fascinated by it too, but that's great. Oh, how fun. Okay. Um, I did have a question and I'm going to pull you back to you said on the tariff topic, you said that, you know, what you're not going to do, which is, I think you alluded to no layoffs. Um, what I really want to get into is. For your organization and in your role in particular, what are you really worried about when it comes to this tariff threat and I guess reality now? And how are you and your executive leadership team kind of sorting through dealing with potential impact? I'm curious about the [00:15:45][56.4]
Jennifer Jones: [00:15:45] Yeah. So what am I, if anything kept me up at night, it's not keeping me up at night. But I think, you know, I won't get into like a political session. I think it's a ton of waste, right? So I just think about the amount of time and capacity that we've even spent trying to plan for all the things we might do as a result of these tariffs. Right. And so I think we've, we've wasted a lot of time that had zero to do with creating value for customers, zero to deal with. And so, I think that's one thing that just is like frustrating for me. It's a lot, it a ton waste. I think the other thing that just worries me about it is it all rolls downhill. And if we think about the industry that I'm in, there's a reason why those products have been offshored because this is a sector of our world. That has the thinnest profit margins, but makes one of the greatest impacts on humanity, healthcare. And so I think when you think about the desire to kind of nearshore, like, listen, we saw the impact of access to supplies during COVID, right? And so to now put a significant price tag on those same supplies. Is only gonna continue to burden what is already a pretty burden healthcare system. So I think as we think strategically as a business, you know, we're continuing to think about how do we create products and services that takes some of the burden off of our healthcare providers so they can do what they do best, which is provide patient care. Think we continue to think about innovation in that regard. But we also have to think about, you know, you have an assortment of products in our portfolio. Some of those products will not be as profitable, and so we may have to make different decisions about the availability of those products out of our portfolio, those are tough decisions to make because again, that impacts patient care. So I would say, you know, we continue to wrestle with side of manufacturing. We're not going to make any sudden changes right now because like, where would you go? And then we continue wrestle with, you now, whatever the burden is that we are seeing from tariffs, how do we in a respectful manner pass it along to the market? I think that's the other thing that we have to think through. I think fortunately for us, we made some decisions that the majority of our products are at this point in time, not being impacted, but that could change tomorrow. And so it's really how do we continue to innovate and drive continuous improvement to just make it a lot easier to be more nimble is what we're focusing on. And trust the team that's closest to the work. Again, I think they're the source of innovation. It's interesting when we started looking at the impacts of tariffs, ingenuity came from the team around other ways that we might be able to offset costs that had nothing to do with people, had nothing to with product, but had things to do and officials in our organization. That came from the team that was closest to the work. From an executive leadership perspective, we never would have seen these things because we're just not close enough to it every day. So I think that's part of it too. [00:18:35][169.8]
Eileen Rochford: [00:18:35] That's an interesting insight that, um, I bet most of us have not heard about. Um, you know, there can be some good, if you will, out of the situation, like even if it's a tiny amount, but still it's interesting that, you know, when you're in tough times, you do have to innovate. So it sounds like you guys are doing. [00:18:52][16.8]
Jennifer Jones: [00:18:52] Never waste a good crisis, I think this Chicagoan said that, right? [00:18:56][3.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:18:56] Somebody said that! [00:18:57][1.1]
Jennifer Jones: [00:18:58] I'm one this [00:18:58][0.6]
Eileen Rochford: [00:18:59] It's a different application, but yes. For sure, for sure, for sure. [00:19:03][4.4]
Rob Johnson: [00:19:04] So J.J., the tariff situation is the latest challenge that companies face that is not of their own making, but historically, it seems to happen every few years, COVID being the last one note, the big one. So when you're delivering messages that may be tougher in these more difficult times, the news might not be great. Why is it important to get out in front of it in a candid and authentic way. [00:19:27][22.9]
Jennifer Jones: [00:19:27] Yeah, I think one, I always tell my team bad news never gets better with time. That's only wine. So it does not get better with. Um, and I think the sooner you can get the bad news out, the sooner you can more eyes and ears and thoughts and brains to think about how we might innovate around it. And so I think that sooner you do that, the better. I think the third thing is like, listen, you have to equip your people with a basic level of knowledge so they can like rest. I'll go back to the tariff dynamic. If we had been evasive about tariffs and folks started making up their own story, then they start responding to their own stories. And then people start looking for other jobs. And then there's this whole disruption that happens versus if we can say, hey, guys, here's our current point of view. Here's how we're going to address it. Here's what our decisions are at this point in time. People can like put that to the side and get back to doing work. And so I think that's another part is in the absence of kind of that information, people fill it up with their own information. And you've got to kind of control the narrative, which Rob, I think you can appreciate that we got to be able to control the narrative. And so, I think, I mean, that's the, you know, it just does a bad news just does not get better with time. Listen, I've had to deliver bad news. And during COVID, surely after we had to lay people off like that, that had to happen. And as difficult as that was, you have to just deliver it, facts, and begin to move through the emotions of all that, and then quite honestly, be able to catch people as they're navigating through these emotions, right? So you can't just drop bad news and then run, like you've got to be present in kind of the process of accepting and understanding what that news or that impact is for those folks individually. [00:21:05][97.9]
Eileen Rochford: [00:21:06] Mm hmm. You ever had a situation JJ where perhaps folks in your C suite were you had to convince them we have to do this and we do it now? Great question. And how did you do it? If that if it happened? [00:21:19][12.8]
Jennifer Jones: [00:21:19] Yeah. I mean, so what's interesting, I've been fortunate in the organization that I'm in right now. And this has been prior to that, I was like a couple of rungs down from the executive level. But particularly in this organization here, I think we have a very pragmatic and balanced approach. And so I think that, you know, even to go back to how we have communicated, I don't believe there's ever been a time where there's been dissent about the communication. There's been there's been catchball on the how but never dissent about the communication I think it was very much driven by the lead our CEO In the position that he took so so I would say from an executive perspective We've always pretty much been on the same page. I think I think in times where I've had to convince Maybe the team or the our leadership team of a different way It's really taking the emotion out of it and serving up the facts. I thing that's I think that is the key and giving people space to... The one thing I read a while ago and think again, it talked about the fact that in most debates, you actually agree on like 98% of the topic, right? And there's only like this 2% where you get hung up on. But because you don't recognize where you agree, you end up arguing things that you agree on and you waste the time. And so I think that's one of the strategies is like, how can I land on what we agree so that we can move past that and really like navigate through the descent. But I would say, you know, we have because of the systems and in place that we have, I don't know that we've ever had a scenario here where we've been out of alignment on decisions to a point where it's like a long battle to get us to a point to get on the same page. [00:23:02][102.8]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:02] That's great. You're very fortunate. [00:23:04][1.2]
Jennifer Jones: [00:23:06] I fully recognize that, yeah, it has been a great move for sure. [00:23:11][5.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:12] Well, it's also a sign that you're in the right place, you know. [00:23:14][2.3]
Jennifer Jones: [00:23:14] You know, it's another. Agree, agree. [00:23:17][2.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:17] For sure. Well, JJ, you know, I hate that we only have so much time on this show. I got to tell you, like I actually [00:23:23][6.8]
Jennifer Jones: [00:23:25] Can you please? Of course, I'll come back. [00:23:27][2.0]
Eileen Rochford: [00:23:28] Okay, we'll find a new iteration to talk about. But before we go, you, as always, I love how knowledgeable our guests are. You've been incredibly, you've shared so much insight and great examples and guidance. But, before we, is there anything else specific that you would like to say? Because we do love to have very actual things for our listeners. Anything else you'd like to impart? [00:23:49][21.4]
Jennifer Jones: [00:23:51] Yeah, so I think a couple things. I think it's tied to the topic of how do you kind of lead through difficult times and communicate thereof? I think the other thing I would remind leaders is that you're human and you yourself are processing through what are difficult times. You yourself are processing though the impact of whatever. Today it's tariffs. A few years ago it was COVID. And so all of that is real. And I think before you can show up authentically for your people, you have to show up authentically yourself. And recognize where you're struggling, recognize when you need to take a beat, recognize when it's hard and acknowledge that. And I think the moment you can do that, you can then begin to step into the shoes of the people that you have the privilege of leading because you yourself have processed through it. So I would say never forget that you're not, you know, oblivious to what's going around you just because you're a leader. And I thing what's interesting as a leader is that we carry our burdens and then we tend to carry the burdens of the the people we work for. And unless you can authentically acknowledge the burdens you're carrying, it's hard for you to do that for someone else. And so I would say make sure you're taking the space because these are very difficult times and I don't, I don't suspect they're going to get much easier. And so, I think the more we can practice self-care and taking pause as a leader, the better leader you'll be for those that. [00:25:05][74.3]
Eileen Rochford: [00:25:07] So real quick, when you talked about self-care at your retreat, was there anything specific that you guys dove into on that topic? [00:25:16][8.7]
Jennifer Jones: [00:25:16] And you know what? So what I what I reminded my team of Eileen is so because we're fully remote, people spend eight plus hours a day on this like teams environment. And so literally during the in the midst of COVID, I began to put what we call a daily department pause and reflect on everyone's calendar, I block their calendar from like 1130 to one every day. And I reminded my team that that's their time and not ours. And that means If you want to take a nap, have at it. If you wanna go for a run, fine. If you won't have lunch with your spouse, which I do every day, like do those things that will refill your tank. And it's on the calendar for that reason. And so it was really the reminder, Eileen, that I'm not asking you to do something after hours. I'm just asking you take advantage of the space that you've already been given. And that was the reminder. [00:26:03][46.8]
Rob Johnson: [00:26:04] From one remote worker to the other. Eileen's like, yes. [00:26:06][2.7]
Eileen Rochford: [00:26:07] I know, I know. So true, so true. That's what we'll talk about next time, JJ. Perfect. This is great. This was awesome. Oh my gosh, we're going to have so much fun. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Oh, gosh. So just to close it out formally, Jennifer Jones, JJ, CMO of Tiny Products, thank you for joining us today. Thanks for having us. I'll make sure that we leave your LinkedIn profile so that folks, if they have questions, they can reach out to you just to learn more because you're... You're one very smart human being. Thank you for having me. [00:26:37][30.3]
Rob Johnson: [00:26:36] Oh my god. Every time I'm around her, my IQ goes up about 10 points. Until you leave. And then I quit talking to her, it goes back down. [00:26:44][7.5]
Eileen Rochford: [00:26:44] Doo doo doo doo, and that's so funny. [00:26:46][1.5]
Rob Johnson: [00:26:48] Listen, I got to tell you, JJ, it was a pleasure having you on. Thank you for all you do. Thank you for your willingness to share some of these great ideas. That's going to do it for another edition of Can You Hear Me? I'm Rob Johnson. If you want to comment on the podcast or suggest topic, please contact us at our Can You Hear Me podcast page on LinkedIn. [00:27:06][17.9]
Eileen Rochford: [00:27:07] I'm Eileen Rochford. If you like what you heard today, listeners, please consider giving Can You Hear Me? A positive review on platforms like Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it because your reviews help other folks or potential listeners find our show. Thanks, everybody. We hope you learned something today. Till next time. [00:27:07][0.0]
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