For many company executives, leading their teams is a top priority- as it should be. But have you considered the importance of leading your other “clients”? In every industry and every profession, we are building client relationships and it takes strong communication and leadership skills to effectively steer them in the right direction. In this Episode of “Can You Hear Me?” we discuss Effective Client Communications with Megan Robinson, Business and Executive Coach with E Leader Experience.
Special Guest: Megan Robinson
Megan Robinson is the principal at E Leader Experience and works with individuals and teams to develop self-leadership skills that grow companies. She started her career in marketing climbing her way through the corporate ladder at advertising agencies and fortune 500 companies. Like many of us, she caught the entrepreneur bug and started her own marketing company. After yet another “Business Therapy” session, Megan discovered her true passion was in coaching and is a John Maxwell certified coach and DiSC Trainer. In addition, she is the Past President of ATDChi the leading learning and development organization in Chicagoland. Inspired by her own successful career in corporate and entrepreneurial environments, Megan makes leadership approachable for everyone, regardless of title, position, or experience.
Website: eleaderexperience.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tritcak/
Leadership resource recommendations from Megan:
Podcast: The look and sound of leadership: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-look-sound-of-leadership/id280383574
Books:
Rob Johnson [00:00:24] For many company executives, leading their teams is a top priority, as it should be. But have you considered the importance of leading your other clients? In every industry, every profession, we're building client relationships. And it takes strong communication and leadership skills to effectively steer them in the right direction. In this episode of "Can You Hear Me?" co-hosts Eileen Rochford and Rob Johnson discuss client communications with Meghan Robinson, business and executive coach with E Leader Experience.
Eileen Rochford [00:00:58] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Can You Hear Me? I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of marketing and strategy firm; The Harbinger Group.
Rob Johnson [00:01:08] And I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications. If you listen to this podcast, you know that we focus on communications, especially as it relates to one's business. Whether you're in the C-suite or a mid-level manager, "Can You Hear Me?" is designed to address important issues and today's topic is consistent with that mission. We're talking client communications. Our guest today is Megan Robinson with E Leader Experience, who spends most of her time coaching executive leadership. Megan, thanks so much for joining us.
Megan Robinson [00:01:38] Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Rob Johnson [00:01:41] We are excited to have you. And first of all, Megan, I'd like to invite you to talk a little bit about your experience and your career for the benefit of our listeners, your background, and how you got to this point.
Megan Robinson [00:01:53] Absolutely. I think like most executive coaches, it's a nice, winding, twisty, curvy road there. But really, it started out with 13 year old Megan, when I decided I wanted to be the VP of marketing and advertising. True story about the weirdest 13 year old you can imagine; and I really ended up doing that. I went to agency life. I went to my client side at Fortune 500 companies. I even became an entrepreneur for a while and really hit that B.P. mark, really loved what I was doing, but wanted to take a minute and look at what was next for me. What was I really passionate about and how did I want to get back? And so I've really defined a lot of the work I was doing at that point, especially at that senior level, as what I call business therapy at the time. And I think a lot of our listeners there understand what it means to be of service for clients working with them. And oftentimes that business therapist role tends to take shape and form. So I ended up getting certified through coaching them at John Maxwell, certified coach and trainer. I also am DiSC certified and became the past president of ATD Chi, the Association for Talent Development. Past president, being the operative word these days. So, very excited about what great work they're doing there. But really, when I focus my practice and look at business coaching and leadership coaching and development, I realized that there's such an opportunity for leadership to really start from the ground up. And I focus a lot on what I call self leadership skills; how to lead yourself so that you're able to lead others. And this often makes leadership more accessible and attainable for people that don't identify as leaders, but also incredibly reflective when you look at senior leaders, because it's astounding how often we really take a pause to look inward at our own leadership and behavior and making sure that it's really, truly aligned with our values.
Eileen Rochford [00:03:51] Oh, that's great, Megan. I wish I could have met 13 year old Megan. She sounds like a little sassy pants, go-getter. Love it!
Megan Robinson [00:04:00] She was a lot. We'll, say.
Eileen Rochford [00:04:02] Yeah, gosh though- how cool is that? You had a vision, and you totally made it happen for yourself- with a great career! Really glad you're here. So we're super excited to hear all of your expertize today. I was going to ask you to start off this whole idea of talking about client communications. So, for the benefit of our listeners, let's spend a few minutes talking about the definition of "clients" and starting with you, Meghan. What do you- when you say that, what does that mean? "Clients" in this context.
Megan Robinson [00:04:39] I really looked at this first as the literal sense of clients. Every business has people that essentially give them money, give them funds, and those are your clients. You could look at them as your guests. I've heard them be called guests, patients. They can be your members, they can be your actual clients, or your community, right? However, you're defining the clients and the people that you serve through your products and services; those are your clients. And I look at the client communication field and honestly, a lot of the account management communication and client leadership is where I see this gigantic gap. And for me, leadership and communications are so closely intertwined that looking at what that client experience is and how we're connecting and communicating with our clients has a lot to be desired.
Eileen Rochford [00:05:36] Yeah, that's really helpful. Okay, so, there's a number of different phrases in there that you utilized. Another one I'll add is constituents. That's a way that we often think about it, amongst my team anyway, but I think we're on the same page. So the people that leaders serve, whether it's their own employees or the people to whom they're selling products. Pretty much covers it. Yeah?
Megan Robinson [00:06:04] Absolutely.
Eileen Rochford [00:06:05] Yeah. Great. Well, this is going to be fun.
Rob Johnson [00:06:14] Oh, thank goodness. I get to say a word. No, I'm kidding. So I was just I was curious, though, as we're going on this journey, we're talking about this, Megan, because so many times when you're in a leadership position, you're so focused on your team, you're so focused on what's right in front of you. And you've already talked about how we could be better at this, but we're not. Where do you feel like- do you feel like enough attention is being given to this? And what can- obviously we're talking about it, so we feel like there's some deficiencies here. Let me ask it in a different way. What can happen to a company if they're not focused enough on their client communications, if they're not taking this matter seriously?
Megan Robinson [00:06:58] There is a world of pain and a world of challenge because communication is how you build relationships. And without having effective communication, without having a great relationship with your clients, you are going to lose them. And so I see this from a loyalty perspective. If you are not communicating effectively, if you're not building trust in that relationship, you will lose the loyalty of that customer, of that client. They will leave. You definitely look at that retention, which feeds into loyalty a lot, but even just the profitability of a client can be extremely derailed if you don't have great communication, if you're not leading that client down the right path. And so I think every aspect, once you have someone that is purchasing from you, once they're in that sphere of influence, you have the opportunity to be an effective communicator or to have hit a lot of landmines, frankly, because once you start building that relationship, the dynamics at play, there's power dynamics, there's money involved, there's different levels of leadership that are being used in different people within an organization. And every single touchpoint is your brand. And every single person that connects with a client is representing your brand. And I know branding is something near and dear to the show's heart, so I did want to put that in there because it is more than just mass client communications, it's the individual touchpoints.
Eileen Rochford [00:08:25] Yeah, I was intrigued a little earlier when you were talking about the setup of who are clients and what it would mean. You talked about the opportunity that you see. And you also mentioned, I think, if my ears were working properly, areas of deficiency in these communications. I'd love to talk about both of those areas next. And here, what are the deficiencies you're seeing now that that need to be addressed and then we can move into opportunities as well. I think that would be real fun to talk about.
Megan Robinson [00:09:03] Who doesn't want to talk about their pains and what they're experiencing. Right? Everything that's going wrong.
Eileen Rochford [00:09:09] Yes. Let's do it. Rip off the bandaid.
Megan Robinson [00:09:12] We're not going to talk about any specific clients, of course, but I think everyone has experienced a toxic client relationship and the client that you knew you shouldn't have taken. Right. That's to me, that comes back to a lot of poor expectations that you were setting at the beginning or the relationship that didn't have a strong foundation or you took it for the wrong reasons that weren't aligned with your values. And I look at that as that communication challenge with those expectations, but also that leadership challenge of aligning to your values. With that, you know, the client relationships that go sour, right? That that were great and something happened and how the team recovered and handled that. Sometimes it goes really well. You've put a lot of stock into that relationship. You've built a lot of trust. There was clear communication. People understood what happened. They were honest. They were upfront with it. And then there's times when it doesn't go well, right? People are hiding things. They're not communicating well. There's a lot of uncertainty and oftentimes there's a lot of money that's lost. I've seen the client relationships, I've experience that myself, right? Where the client that you can't say no to. And people will even get more controversial about this. But I look at that as that servant leadership style to the extreme. When you take that servant leadership style and you don't care about your business as much, you're caring all about the client. You're making bad choices that hurt the team, that put the team at risk, that forced them to work deadlines that are unreasonable or unfair. And it's no longer a collaborative, healthy relationship. And all of that feeds into that client communication.
Rob Johnson [00:10:56] And you know, sometimes, Megan, I want to take that a little step further because I'm interested to hear your thoughts on, you know, getting into that relationship and then finding out that there may be some toxicity involved. Finding out that it might not be who you thought it was. And you're in midstream and you were just talking about being the servant leader and perhaps not doing what's best for the project or for your team. But how do you extricate yourself from it? How do you artfully get through it, do the work as it needs to be done, not just for that one client that's kind of, you know, taking up a lot of thoughts in your head, but doing what's best for the people that are doing the work, which is your team? I'm sure there's no simple answer, but it really fascinates me.
Megan Robinson [00:11:50] What I heard is; when you do get into those tough relationships and situations, how do you pull yourself out?
Rob Johnson [00:11:58] And salvage a project and salvage your relationship and not, you know, not scorch the earth? I mean, I know some people do it. I think most people would prefer not to do it.
Megan Robinson [00:12:08] That's where I was actually talking about burning bridges in a call last week. And I was like, no, you know, you can have the match lit and decide not to do it. Or does it take people to burn that bridge, right? Does someone have to accept if you throw flames on it, gasoline, someone else has to ignite that match? And it takes both sides of that relationship. But I think when you do start recognizing that you're in a not great relationship, it's having that clear communication, having that honesty, setting those boundaries typically is really where you start to succeed. And until you're willing to set those boundaries and know what they are, you're going to have a really hard time having a good relationship. I'm no marriage counselor. Let me go ahead and throw that one out there. Definitely have some pretty intense conversations with clients, but definitely not my expertize. But setting some of those great boundaries or reestablishing them or even just being transparent, honest, tends to have those moments where you're either going to take ownership for the mistakes. You're going to be able to establish what you want moving forward and really craft that vision. Where I think a lot of the client communications and client relationships fall short is because you don't have a strong vision. You haven't told them where they're going, they don't know what success looks like. And so really starting to go to some of those leadership fundamentals can take that client relationship in a new direction.
Eileen Rochford [00:13:35] I would love to hear you expand on that. Leadership fundamentals a little bit more. For the benefit of our listeners, I would love to hear you explain some of those because I think in this context, it's really helpful.
Megan Robinson [00:13:48] So when I look at leadership, I go to four pillars and this is actually what I do and teach with cohorts in coaching. And I look at it as a vision building and goal setting, communication, emotional intelligence and that self-awareness. And when you think of a lot of leadership challenges and just about every facet, it's going to ladder back to one, if not all of those pillars. And so the fundamentals, when it comes to client relationships, obviously, that clear communication, setting proper expectations is so critical to that. But setting that vision of here's where we're going, here's what you can expect from us. Some of it could be some of those boundaries, but it's also the culture of your organization and how you operate in that, what they can expect from you just as much because it is that back and forth relationship. I think we've all been in emotionally intelligent situations with clients where sometimes it's not about the project that's in front of you, right? It's not about the product and service. It's something- everyone's nodding for those that can't see; everyone's like "been there."
Rob Johnson [00:14:58] She's getting lots of agreement here from Eileen.
Eileen Rochford [00:15:01] Oh yeah. Been doing this 25 years. Oh, yeah!
Megan Robinson [00:15:07] When I said business therapy earlier, I wasn't joking about that. When you're in those relationships, it just takes on a certain emotional intelligence to really look beyond what's going on or dive a little bit deeper or be sensitive to some of those emotions. And curious with them. And a lot of times that self-awareness- it's taking ownership. It's understanding how you're coming off or how that might be interpreted and being clear with that.
Rob Johnson [00:15:34] But your four pillars, your vision-building, your communications, your emotional intelligence and your self-awareness only work if they want to improve on. It's great to be self-aware. I'm self-aware, but I'm awesome or I'm self-aware. But you know what? I can do better. So, there's that second piece. The four pillars are key. You've already illustrated that. But if there's not the desire to get better, the, you know, you have self-awareness, but do you have that desire to get better? Do you have even more self-awareness that you need to get better?
Megan Robinson [00:16:07] I'm looking for my statistics on self-awareness. You'd be surprised. It's actually much shorter supply where a lot of people think they're more self-aware than they are. I think it was from a Harvard Business Review study that I read that. So, you can be aware of your successes- that mostly is 50% of self-awareness and it's an important 50%. Not everyone is aware of how awesome they are. I mean, Rob Johnson, I'm going to attest to how awesome you are. But the other half of that awareness--.
Rob Johnson [00:16:39] DON'T stop. No.
Megan Robinson [00:16:41] I like how you say stop and then say don't stop.
Rob Johnson [00:16:44] Yeah, don't stop.
Megan Robinson [00:16:45] But the other half of that is understanding where some of those gaps are. Being open and willing to continue to learn and grow for it. And that's true for everything. I think, especially in the last several years, we understand how necessary it is to be a little bit more agile in our leadership, a little bit more flexible and a lot more curious. So I do preach a lot of curiosity when it does come to leadership, just because it does bring out so many incredible skills and values for everyone, especially when it comes to communication.
Eileen Rochford [00:17:16] That's so true. Just being open and curious to dig at what's behind the way that person is communicating with me. I think it's really important because you can have so many assumptions out of the gate, especially in written communications and email. People often phrase things more bluntly in email than they would in person. And that can create some big problems. I can't tell you how many times I've had to kind of talk people off ledges because of a very poorly written email communication from a client who was having a bad moment like that. At the heart of it, that's what it was. And it had nothing to do with us and everything to do- go ahead. [Rob interrupting]
Rob Johnson [00:18:01] What about not only poorly written, but maybe the intent was not even there? It was just innocuous.
Eileen Rochford [00:18:10] Then they didn't think about it and they just fired it off and that's y'know.
Rob Johnson [00:18:15] Or they didn't realize the magnitude of their words. I mean, I think what you're bringing up is really important, Eileen, because I just had this come up. A simply worded, very short email a couple of weeks ago, turned into- and I managed to sort of stay out of the fray- but between a couple of people I was collaborating with and it turned out to be really ugly. And I didn't think the initial thing was that bad. It was taken as, "What do you mean?" and it turned into something way worse. So I think you're bringing up something really important, Eileen.
Eileen Rochford [00:18:48] Yeah, even in interpersonal team communications you'll see this- on largely healthy, well-functioning teams, not so much- but occasionally, even on those teams, you'll see it. Someone just was overloaded at the second that maybe they're being asked ten things at once. I do that to my kids. Sorry guys, I do not give the nicest response. So I'm like, "Hey, I can't help you find your pen when I'm in between two huge meetings and I have 2 seconds in the bathroom." So yeah, maybe I'm not really nice, right? People do that because there are always reasons behind the way people communicate. As counselors, it seems like, too often it falls to us to kind of see beyond the surface of the words and be kind of the bigger person in the moment to be curious, as Megan put it, and explore and then come to a resolution (hopefully) about, "Oh, gosh, oh, it's okay. We didn't get all freaked out. Don't worry about it."
Rob Johnson [00:19:57] And that comes with getting on a phone or a zoom call, though. So Megan, you can tell we're big fans of email communication as a way to solve problems, right? Eileen and I have- we have set that piece up perfectly there. But the point is, I'm sure that all feelings, you know, were sort of glossed over, you know, everything was worked out, but it usually requires "Here's what I meant." And we're talking in person to each other or on the phone or on a zoom call, as opposed to the emails, which can sometimes get misconstrued, which does the opposite of client communications. It actually can break things down, right Megan?
Megan Robinson [00:20:33] Absolutely. I think we all have the horror stories of the email we took wrong or the text message that was sent in the moment. So, knowing which channel is appropriate for the moment and being able to recover quickly from those situations where you can get into that email spin or handle it quickly, and that's a leadership move, right? And that's something that anyone can step and say, "Hey, we need to have a quick phone call" or, you know, this little device that we carry everywhere, it actually has a phone on it.
Eileen Rochford [00:21:05] And they still work!
Megan Robinson [00:21:06] They do! And so being able to and it's a novel idea, I know, but resolving some of those issues quickly, making sure that you're in the right medium for it. But the curiosity, you know, happens on both sides of it. A little bit of grace. I think we're all a lot more comfortable giving people that right now, but bringing up that clarity as quickly as possible and understanding that difference between intent. But with the example, Rob, that you just gave and I wonder if an email sets someone off that quickly, what else is going on there? That's a bigger issue than just the email.
Rob Johnson [00:21:42] Oh, believe me. And without getting into specifics, being on the periphery of that, there was a lot of me asking that very question, is this a road I want to go down? Is this something I want to do? If that's how that thing became something that was far greater than it should have been. So, yeah, you're pointing out some really good points there. I know that I was like, is this going to be a healthy relationship? Is this going to be ok?
Megan Robinson [00:22:16] But the steps you took to establish a healthy relationship, there's boundaries that you set up when you saw the warning signs to lead them towards a proper communication and what's appropriate, what they can expect from you.
Rob Johnson [00:22:31] And the main advice was, quit sending emails back and forth.
Megan Robinson [00:22:41] Well, and it's funny, something you brought up earlier, just with that perspective and how quickly and difficult it can be to hear or see the other person's side. I spent the first part of my career at an advertising agency. And then I actually worked for my client, which is a bit of a twist if you've ever been on the other side. And so all of those things and those questions in your mind, like, why can't they just answer this? How hard is this really? You learn first hand.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:16] And I think the first thing is you, the agency, are not the center of their universe. Like, there's all this other stuff they do and you're like 20th on the list.
Megan Robinson [00:23:28] Getting that perspective and just shifting that attitude about it, I think is really- I was fortunate to do it earlier in my career. I'm like- Oh, this is what it's like. Here's how I rejigger my communication, here's what people need and being able to really put yourself in their shoes.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:46] That was brilliant that you did early on and can see the benefit and value of doing that early in your career and you just maybe think god, that should be like a requirement of every agency person. "Okay, you're only get to stay for three and then you got to work on my side. So you know what it's really like then you can come back."
Megan Robinson [00:24:07] I used to call it "Going to the Dark Side," and then I went to the other dark side.
Rob Johnson [00:24:13] Leaving media and going to this side, and they're all like, "Oh gosh, you went to the dark side. There's no getting them back. There's no getting them back." So there's another dark side to that. So I'm glad to know that I didn't even know there was another dark side. Megan, so I've got a lot of growth here.
Eileen Rochford [00:24:26] Yeah, you can go darker and darker. It's great.
Megan Robinson [00:24:30] It's different 50 Shades of black there.
Eileen Rochford [00:24:35] Okay, moving on.
Rob Johnson [00:24:36] I love that. So, Megan, let me ask you this. When we're talking about these tenets of leadership and client communications, is this really reserved for executive leadership teams, do you think, or is this for, say, mid managers on up? Is this advice you would give to anybody or is it specific to the major company leaders?
Megan Robinson [00:24:58] I think major company leaders lose sight of what it's like earlier in your career. By the time you're a leader, you see this intuitively, you've been building relationships, you've honed your communication. So there is definitely, I think we all know the leaders that can use better communication skills, so I'm going to leave them out of it. But a lot of the skilled ones tend to forget what it's like earlier. And right now, a lot of the model is about learning through experience, and if you're lucky, you've got someone that's kind of watching your back and making sure that you don't mess up in front of the client and you're kind of being coached or mentored through that if you're lucky. But the majority of the time is through trial and error. And why it's so funny or not funny right now and everyone can relate is because they can think, "Oh, man, I remember when I did that. I remember that client situation" because they had to go through that in order to get that wisdom. And so I think it is so critical that we really empower our teams to have better client communication so that they are able to forge those relationships on our behalf. Because it's not just one leader that really needs to hone it. And I think we all know- and if you identify this, it will go back to the awareness that you do need help strengthening some of those skills. A lot of times you'll pull in someone else to help you be that relationship builder. So it does touch everyone at a lot of different times, at a lot of different levels. But I would say that client communication is so critical for anyone that's client facing.
Eileen Rochford [00:26:35] So, for the younger folks who don't always have the benefit of the greatest mentors or managers, what advice would you give them on things that they, you know, the old adage, "you don't know what you don't know." What things would you point out to those early in their career? Some "watch outs" and guidance on good principles of client communications.
Megan Robinson [00:27:08] And I'll say this will actually go for the younger ones just as much as the more seasoned professionals, we'll say, it is just really clarifying your intent. Clear communication is so critical and I don't care how many years of experience you have, really being able to craft a well-written email, to have that incredible presentation that's very sharp and to the point. That's the most important thing. So really thinking about what is it that you want? What is it that you're trying to get at? Particularly earlier, if you're just trying to get an approval on something, if you're just trying to get assets from someone or feedback, whatever that is, really making sure that you know exactly what it is that you're looking for.
Eileen Rochford [00:27:54] Well, it's all about the headline, right? I mean, the set up anyway, but the headline is still important it sounds like.
Megan Robinson [00:28:04] Headline is still important and then honing your nuance. That emotional intelligence comes into play around it. So, "clear is kind." I'll have a little Brene Brown in there.
Rob Johnson [00:28:15] You know, as you're sitting here and we were telling horror stories about emails and this is very simple. I found that it works very well for me, and it's such a minor thing, is just put some "please" and "hank yous" in there. It could be a text or an email and it's just being thoughtful and it knocks down whatever somebody might misconstrue you saying- those sometimes help knocking it down so I'm not sitting here saying "oh gosh, Rob, that's incredible insight. I've never heard of such a thing," but it's easy and it doesn't cost anything. And I think it has its usefulness without question. So you're sitting here giving high level great advice. And I'm sitting here like, please, and thank you.
Eileen Rochford [00:28:59] Down to the basics.
Megan Robinson [00:29:00] It's it's an important one.
Eileen Rochford [00:29:03] Yeah. Just talking really now, I mean, I feel like politeness is kind of just, you know, gone by the wayside and a number of our interactions because we've forgotten how to be together lately as human beings. Yeah, I mean, I can't be the only one seeing this guys, come on.
Rob Johnson [00:29:23] What are you talking about?
Eileen Rochford [00:29:24] No, I mean, in general, from our driving habits...
Rob Johnson [00:29:27] No, we have definitely all seen it. You're just stating something. And again, this is all audio. But we were sitting here shaking our heads so that the audience can't see us sitting here buying in to like, "Yup, yeah, we know exactly what you're talking about."
Eileen Rochford [00:29:40] We're on the radio, we need some audience participation.
Rob Johnson [00:29:45] Exactly. But, to your point, Eileen, the discourse isn't always so positive.
Eileen Rochford [00:29:51] No, and I do really feel like we have forgotten a lot and become a little more blunt. I mean, we need some edge softening, corners softening, again as human beings and how we interact with one another. And I do believe that's really true. It's strange.
Rob Johnson [00:30:10] Well, I think there have been leaders in society, without getting into any sort of big political discussion, that have given a wink and a nod to, hey, just say whatever you want to anybody.
Eileen Rochford [00:30:22] Yeah and that's true too. Yeah that's a really good point.
Rob Johnson [00:30:25] I don't want to get too far off the path here. But I think it is relevant.
Eileen Rochford [00:30:31] Jump in Megan.
Megan Robinson [00:30:32] I am going to jump in because I think one miss is missing that connection when you're so specific and to the point and direct with it, you're really not using communication to connect with others. You're using it as a tool to get stuff done. And when we look at that client relationship or your team dynamics, making sure that you still have a connection point, I think is what will help soften some of those edges. The "please and thank you" is a simple one, just not the thanks in advance. I don't know if that makes anyone else cringe at their computer. Like "Oh man, I am so going to take forever with this."
Eileen Rochford [00:31:06] You're assuming that I'm just going to do this. Okay.
Megan Robinson [00:31:10] The authentic gratitude goes a long way and sharing it and even being- and I know I actually had to coach a couple leaders on this one- being grateful for just meeting expectations. And that's a hard one. But the thank you, it's not thanks for doing your job, it's thank you for showing up and doing it.
Eileen Rochford [00:31:30] These are great reminders.
Rob Johnson [00:31:31] That that is a great reminder. I'm curious to know for some of the leaders, and Eileen and I have spent hours on the whole empathy and then the CEO, the new CEO, and how he and he or she needs to be a little bit more empathetic and a little bit more aware of the workforce, their employees, the people that work for them. Is that where the rub is, megan, sometimes? If you are working with somebody who doesn't have that "e-gene." (I assume this refers to empathy)
Megan Robinson [00:31:58] Oh, yeah. Letting people know that you care, really having that appreciativeness- and I go to a place of gratitude with it, and you can be grateful for the things that you already have. You can be grateful for things going well and really taking that far down where especially when you get those senior and executive leaders that have achieved so much and they have such high standards, it can start to feel that anything below that is garbage, right? Anything below that at the absolute best, anything that's not above and beyond doesn't deserve that gratitude. And so that's where I see that employee experience and that disconnect really starting to fizzle out and just dissipate, particularly when we're not as visible. And it's harder to really understand and see that.
Eileen Rochford [00:32:50] Yeah, because who can overperform 1,000% of the time? Nobody. Everyone just wants to feel appreciated. This is a great reminder. Thank you.
Rob Johnson [00:33:01] I want to ask you this because I love the nuance of it- about being a consultant, being an executive leadership coach, which is what you are. But when you're going on these journeys with clients sometimes and I'm not trying to have you give away some of your implicit secrets, how much of this is steering your clients in the right direction, the direction you think is best for them, while making sure they feel like they have ownership over whatever you're trying to steer them in the direction of, and it's their idea? How much of that is getting that buy in? And then all of a sudden they go, "That's my idea!" And you're like, "Yes, you're a genius."
Megan Robinson [00:33:37] It's a 100% their idea every time. I think whether you're consulting and you're giving the advice, you have to align to what that vision is beforehand. Otherwise, you're never going to get there and they're never going to appreciate or buy into that idea. When it comes to coaching, it's 100% how someone else is going to define success or define what they want or what their vision is, or whatever pieces of it. You don't have to have a grand vision but you have to know what you want, or at least spend the time to figuring that out. So I try very, very hard to remove judgment. I can't be completely unbiased, I'm not going to go into the neuroscience of that. But at least here, remove the judgment and listen as closely as possible to make sure that we're going towards that same direction, that we're moving in a way towards what they want, not what they don't want. So there's a lot less steering. There may be, I'll say, some realigning, some pointing when you have those leadership conversations, right? Sometimes you have to steer the client. "No, this is what we agreed to." But it's never the, "no." I mean, here's actually the other quick tip. It's always the "yes and" and never a "No, but"- I stole that from improv, I'm sure there's more than enough improv people that I've actually done improv- I haven't. But that, "yes, and" is the client seeking grace, right? You can always acknowledge the client. "Yes, that's true." "Yes, you're late." "Yes, we can do that- and here are the ramifications of that." So, yes, you can go be a jerk and send out that memo to the entire team. And how do you think they're going to take it? And is that the kind of leader you want to be? That's totally in your ballpark. That's your purview. That's your decision.
Eileen Rochford [00:35:33] I want to ask one more question, if I may. Any objections? Ok good, no. So, coaching is something that I don't think most communications advisors, people inside of agencies, even independent consultants, really understand how to do well. It's a highly nuanced expertize that, frankly, you have to study to learn to get better at. I'm always trying to learn to be better at this because I'm a "get shit done" kind of gal and that's not good when you're trying to gain consensus across multi-perspective groups. You get it? so what I'm asking is, what resources could folks, like me and Rob, go to- and others, you know, at any stage of their career in this marketing realm- go to to become better at coaching? Any books you love or other resources, things these folks like us could reference?
Megan Robinson [00:36:49] Oh man, I wish I had ahead of time so I can go through the list. You know, a book that really changed, I think is so simple and amazing is The Coaching Habit. Five quick questions and I use them. I use them on my husband.
Eileen Rochford [00:37:10] He won't listen to that.
Rob Johnson [00:37:12] You know, it's because he's knows he's being coached, though.
Megan Robinson [00:37:13] We've had those conversations, actually. I've literally been in a conversation like, okay, how do you want me to show up? I can be your wife. I can be your friend. Do you want me to be your coach like- you tell me. We had one conversation, I was like, "I'm not going to wear the wife hat now because we'll deal with that one later."
Rob Johnson [00:37:33] I love it that you telegraph that for him, though. You told him upfront, okay, she's not here right now- the wife- nowhere to be seen.
Eileen Rochford [00:37:41] She'll come back later.
Rob Johnson [00:37:43] She may be back here later.
Megan Robinson [00:37:46] Well, I mean, that's clear, right? That's having that intention, it's being there for someone. It's setting those expectations for it. So I do love the coaching habit quite a lot just because it's a great way into it. There's several other books, but I think a lot of it is that communication and a lot of it is your leadership style. I will do a little and like looking at my bookshelf in the corner because you want to have a book that's not necessarily "how to be a coach." You want to learn coaching skills. And so there's just a little bit of a nuance there. And so anything that is a lot about how to listen well, I'd say would be a really great starting point. And you did hear me with some Brene Brown earlier. I do love a lot of what she says around the leading with vulnerability and how to stay curious and her "clear is kind," the really great tenants that help get you into that space.
Eileen Rochford [00:38:44] That's a great closer. I was going to ask who you love listening to. Pick your social media platform. Brene Brown on LinkedIn is a great one.
Megan Robinson [00:38:56] There is also Dan (inaudible). That's not the real name, sorry about that. He has a leadership podcast, but I will send you that I love. He is an executive coach and hearing how he does a beautiful job of storytelling and really guiding someone through those conversations. I've been a big fan, been listening to him for several years.
Eileen Rochford [00:39:20] Oh, excellent. We'll put that in the show notes. Thank you. It's wonderful. Any other ideas? I would love to pop them in and spread your wealth.
Rob Johnson [00:39:28] Yes, and even if you think about it after this wonderful podcast, you can just let Eileen know and make show notes time, absolutely.
Eileen Rochford [00:39:34] I will do that. No problem.
Rob Johnson [00:39:37] Megan, you're unbelievable.
Megan Robinson [00:39:39] Or you can hire a coach. I mean, that works too.
Rob Johnson [00:39:42] Hire a coach. Do you know anybody that's qualified. I think I know somebody.
Megan Robinson [00:39:49] When you work on your coaching skills. Coaches.
Eileen Rochford [00:39:52] Very, very good. Fantastic. Yeah. Who doesn't need a coach? Seriously, I sure do. Okay. I mean, most days.
Rob Johnson [00:40:02] I think we all do. Yeah. You're not alone.
Eileen Rochford [00:40:05] No, I don't feel alone. It's the depth of coaching that's needed on a daily basis that varies depending on where you're at. But thank you, Megan, any closing thoughts to share anything?
Megan Robinson [00:40:20] Well I am so glad I got to do this podcast with you guys. You guys are just such incredible, talented people and the way you have such a wonderful conversation and the stories and what comes out of these dialogs is so powerful. So thank you for having me.
Eileen Rochford [00:40:36] Well, thank you for that. That's very kind. And we thank you. You've been amazing. I can't wait to listen to it again and pick out all the just golden nuggets that you've imparted here. There were many. So appreciate you being with us today. It is a pleasure and it's an honor. And we look forward to having you back today. So a big thank you. I'm Eileen Rochford, in case you guys have forgotten in the last 45 minutes, CEO of The Harbinger Group.
Rob Johnson [00:41:06] And I'm Rob Johnson. Megan, thank you so much. President of Rob Johnson Communications. We want to thank everybody for listening. And we hope you have learned a thing or two along the way. Remember, you can listen to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts and we hope you'll join us next time. Thanks for listening.
Eileen Rochford [00:41:24] Thanks everybody.