Since the pandemic began, the workplace has changed dramatically. For everyone it meant fully remote work, and for many that is still the case. But whether you are fully remote, use a hybrid model-part in-person, part remote, or are fully in-person once again, how have the communications challenges evolved. On Episode 9 of the “Can You Hear Me” podcast, we explore how workers have had to adapt their professional communications, from leaders of teams, to brands reaching consumers, and what does this mean for our future?
Communicating in the new and future workplace, whether that be a hybrid or fully remote model, is radically different than pre-2020. Beyond the physical and tactical decision that leaders must tackle as they lay plans for their new workplace structures is the great need to assess and develop new communications skills for ALL employees and teams. And the need to evolve how work is tackled is now urgent - workflows, processes, and communications all need an edit and FAST. We talk about living and communicating values, leading with empathy, various tools needed to upgrade work processes, and key communications assessments and trainings that leaders should leverage right now to prepare for the altered approach to work that is here to stay.
Asana.com
Monday.com
4Lenses.com
Mental Health days https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/29/well/mind/mental-health-day.html?smid=url-share
NYT-Returning to the Office and the Future of Work
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/09/23/opinion/covid-return-to-work-rto.html
CNN-CEOs weigh in on the future of work
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2021/09/business/perspectives/future-of-work-pandemic/index.html
The Future of Work is Here-Newsweek
https://www.newsweek.com/future-work-here-1620794
Can you hear me Episode 9 Transcript
Rob Johnson [00:00:16] This is episode 9, Communicating the future of the workplace. Since the pandemic began, the workplace has changed dramatically. for everyone, it meant fully remote work, and for many, that is still the case. But whether you're fully remote, use a hybrid model, part in-person, part remote or are fully in-person, once again, you need to understand that communications challenges have really evolved. On Episode 9 of the Can You Hear Me podcast, we explore how workers have had to adapt their professional communications, from leaders of teams to brands reaching consumers, and what this all means for our future.
Eileen Rochford [00:00:59] Hello again, everyone, and welcome to our Communication-centric Podcast, Can you hear me? I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the marketing strategy and public relations firm The Harbinger Group.
Rob Johnson [00:01:11] And I'm Rob Johnson, former TV news anchor and currently the president of my own communications consulting firm Rob Johnson Communications. For those of you who are tuning in for the first time, we thank you and we welcome you. And for those of you who are returned listeners, you know that Eileen and I talk about what we believe are some of the most important communications issues of the day. Episode 9 today will be dealing with another such issue, especially with the professional uncertainty of the COVID world. We're going to call it Communicating in the future workplace.
Eileen Rochford [00:01:43] So in our research for each podcast. Rob and I enjoy reviewing and pulling from different sources. And one such source that caught our eye this time was an article on CNN dot com. It was called The pandemic changed the way we work, 15 CEOs weigh in on what's next. There is so much pertinent information there as it relates to this discussion and the big takeaway, not surprisingly, the biggest takeaway the most significant change coming to top companies is the flexibility issue. So commuting five days a week to the workplace for many companies is just going to be a thing of the past. That's clear.
Rob Johnson [00:02:19] Yeah, no question about that. In fact, Eileen Jane Fraser, who's the CEO of Citi, said, “most of us will be on a hybrid schedule that requires us to be in the office at least three days a week. Hopefully, this flexibility can keep the doors open to people who have traditionally found it difficult to maintain a career in our industry.” And Drew Houston, CEO of Dropbox, said.” I see the 40-hour office workweek, an artifact of factory work, finally becoming a thing of the past. Employees will escape grueling commutes and gain more control over their day. That has to be news to the ears of so many workers who are seeing a shift in CEO attitudes.
Eileen Rochford [00:03:00] Good news, for sure. My gosh. Yeah, that grueling commute aspect of work-life has never been anyone's favorite part. As far as I know, I mean, maybe I'm making a gross generalization there.
Rob Johnson [00:03:14] But I think people also understand, too, that they have so many more hours in the day to be productive. And when COVID first hit and everybody's working remotely, I think it was a real eye-opener for a lot of people. And so when people said, Hey, when are we returning to the norm? You say, Well, we're not returning to the norm. And now the longer we have gone through this process, I think it's clear that this is the new norm and not having to do that commute all the time, I think it's something that people are really going to embrace and quoting what, Jane Fraser was talking about, you know, with the flexibility issue. I mean, this is this is a huge factor when it comes to a lot of things. And this is the wave of the future. I don't think there's any doubt about that.
Eileen Rochford [00:04:02] No, no. And I loved how Jane put it. The changes that they're making in the hope’s that they will be able to keep more folks in their workplace at Citi who have had lots of barriers and obstacles, you know, come up in their own lives. That made it harder for them to keep up with the pace of a financial institution like Citi. I totally get that. I think it's fantastic. You know,that they're thinking along those lines. You know, this idea of we'll just take the topic of women and men, those who choose to become parents, right. In whatever form that takes the change, the shift, the massive impact that that has, and how you allocate your time just as a human being and you make decisions about, boy, can I keep up with a career like that? Do I want to keep up with a career like that when it’'s making it so hard for me to participate in the life or the lives of the children that I've chosen, you know, to help raise? Do I want to do that and do I want to do that and have this grueling lifestyle? Those are choices that women have had to make and men increasingly more so, that if you step off of that treadmill, even if you step off of it for three months, six months, a year, getting back on is very, very difficult, not just emotionally and psychologically, but in terms of, you know, people look at you differently and they always have. I mean, just look at finance in particular. You're looked at like you have a weakness, like, Oh, why do I have to step off? So to have a CEO of one of the largest financial services companies in the world say that is awesome. That's a giant leap forward. And I think that that, you know, I hope that that's going to mean a significant change in lots of companies. And when they see that, yeah, you can do that, you can do that and you don't have to do it at the expense of quality of talent and success and growth of your company. The flexibility aspect - that's totally the key to making it work. So I'm glad to see that a major company led by a woman is taking things in that direction.
Rob Johnson [00:06:43] The career or the family, though, shouldn't be mutually exclusive, you should be able to do both and what you're also doing with that is you're expanding the talent pool dramatically because people who didn't feel like they could do both are now in a position to say, I think I can do both, especially with this flexibility issue taken care of. So all of a sudden, your workforce, the people that are, you know, in your employ, you're going to have a lot more talent available than you once did because those people that may have felt like I can't do both now can do both. And to have a leader like Jane Fraser say this is the new norm, I think is incredible.
Eileen Rochford [00:07:26] Absolutely. So I get it like not every industry can do this, right, this flexibility thing doesn't apply as easily to every industry. Knowledge Workers certainly have a much straighter path to incorporating flexible work schedules, flexible, you know, locales of work versus lots of other industries. You know, we don't totally understand that, but I can tell you from I think it's 18 years now at the Harbinger Group we have been an exclusively remote workforce. I can tell you that the quality of the work in no way is impacted negatively. In fact, I think it's impacted positively because our folks do have really good work-life balance. Many more hours back in their day. They work on on their own terms a lot more. I've seen that firsthand for a very long time, and I'm happy to see that other companies are recognizing that. it's an issue of evolution, right? COVID presented many opportunities, and the companies that are embracing the opportunity to change are the ones that are going to win. No doubt about it.
Rob Johnson [00:08:44] And I love that, Drew Houston said, the 40-hour office workweek is a product of factory work, and this isn't relevant to the current state of affairs and what's going on and a lot of places. And kudos to you. I mean, I'm sure you had to chuckle a little bit when people are doing remote work and now they're like, Hey, remote work, it's a thing and you're like, Hey, the Harbinger Group, it's been it for 18 years. Yeah. And you have and you have allowed people. But the other part of it, too, and we don't have to get too deep into it, but I think you can speak to this very uniquely is, some people, our managers, bosses are micromanagers and they want to be, lording over their employees. And you have to show your employees some respect and allow them to work on their own terms and do that sort of thing. So it really takes a somebody. I'm not saying that, you know, oh gosh, you're not a micromanager, so you're unique. But a lot of people, I'm sure, who are micromanagers have a hard time with this new way of thinking when it comes to working.
Eileen Rochford [00:09:49] No doubt things like workflows, project management platforms, those types of tools are essential to success in a remote environment. We use them extensively at our firm. They create such clear visibility into productivity that trust is just inherent. You don't have to question. So this is also going to force a lot of companies to recognize, Oh, because we don't have the physical space where we gather that somehow gives this facade, you know, of of security, because they're here, then they're working. Right, right. It's silly. This is ridiculous. They're going to recognize, Oh, so it's to our benefit now to implement processes, workflow platforms. Take your pick. There's a million of them that are great in our workplace because that will improve how our teams are able to or team members as a team are able to engage with one another. Keep track of projects. Ask questions. Share information, no matter where they are. Right. So that's another thing that hopefully lots and lots of companies have figured out and more will do so quickly. I can tell you that what COVID did for us was normalize that. And that's a great thing because a lot of the time clients we work with were, you know, maybe in a more traditional structure when it comes to managing projects. So it was hard for them to understand what we were talking about when we would say, Oh, we'll put that into, we use Asana, we'll put that into our Asana projects, T it up as a workflow, invite you, you know, to see the progress, add comments and such. They just didn't even know what that was. You know, they lived in this world of emailing documents back and forth, and maybe they'd advanced to Google Docs and things like that, right? So it was pretty exciting to be able to, even almost teach and bring them along in that world because they were suddenly thrust into a remote work environment themselves, so it became like, Oh wait, oh what you guys do, that's now what my company is saying. We're going to do now too. I get it. Oh, good. Okay, let's do this. So it made things a lot easier for us, actually.
Rob Johnson [00:12:08] And the work that I've done with you, having the Asana, you know, it's not something that I used before, but it's very efficient and you can see what's going on. At first, you're like, OK, let me kind of get used to this a little bit, and I'm and I still am when we do projects together. But I really think it's a great resource.
Eileen Rochford [00:12:26] It is. And again, it's this isn't a commercial for Asana, and they're not a sponsor or anything, just to be clear to everybody.
Rob Johnson [00:12:32] Let me write that down. Contact Asana!
Eileen Rochford [00:12:35] You know, Monday.com, and other tools to use exist out there, a bunch of them, I'll put some in the show notes. I'll put some resources for folks to look at and just, you know, there's also a great blog that I found last year. There are pros and cons of each of them. But yeah, anyone who's interested in working or, you know, looking into that more. We always love sharing our experience. So flexibility. Anything that can be done to increase flexibility while maintaining, preserving or even increasing productivity. I am super interested in learning about it, and I'm constantly reading about new resources. That’s a subject I personally love, love, love.
However, getting back to the topic at hand, flexibility was NOT the only topic on the minds of the CEOs in that CNN.com article. Jim Laurie, he's the CEO of Stanley Black and Decker had this to say "the future of work will look like a more caring and compassionate place where employee well-being is being prioritized. We've been mindful of the pressure and challenges our people face, and we're committed to a culture of respect, inclusion, engagement and well-being for all". Rich Barton, the CEO of Zillow, was quoted as saying "the future of the workforce is going to be more diverse. We see flexible work as a game-changer that will help us attract and retain more diverse team members from every corner of North America who will bring new ideas and new energy to our company". I really like the Jim Laurie is talking about mental health issues which need to be focused on, and that Rich Barton is talking about flexible work in the prism of diversity and how they will be able to recruit talent and retain it. Those are all very important things.
Rob Johnson [00:14:22] Yeah. And to the mental health issue, and I know it's something that you and I have talked about in the past and now we're talking about flexibility and we've talked about it for the first few minutes of this podcast, but now we're talking about it in those different ways. Now we're talking about it, as you know, the mental health issue and making sure that your workers are ready to work for you and that you are creating that culture of respect, inclusion, engagement and making sure that everybody's well-being is tended to. Because I think, I don't want to paint with a broad brush here. But you know, a lot of places in the past would just be like, Just do your work, get it done, be productive, period. And now it's like to get all of those things accomplished. We need to make sure that we're tending to other issues on the other end for our employees. And and really, we were talking about, when Jane Fraser was talking about and you were talking about Eileen about having more women in the workplace. People that feel like they can, contribute and they can do both. And now Rich is talking about it in diversity, which I think he's talking about more women. He's also talking about different people from different parts of the country that will be able to participate in the process, and they will have a diversity of ideas as a result of it, which that's a win-win as well.
Eileen Rochford [00:15:45] It is the mental health issue. Let's just pause on that one for a sec. How companies are approaching that is really interesting, I've been tracking this pretty carefully, I've seen a number of instances where companies are baking in mental health days. Now that doesn't create mental health, but it can send the signal to the workforce that we're adding additional days away from the office for you that are labeled for mental health because we recognize that things are tough and we work really hard and everyone needs to recharge. It says that the company wants you to take care of yourself. It's almost the symbolism of that gesture is very potent, as I see it. So that's one thing that companies can consider is giving Mental health days and noting they are not to be tacking them on to vacation time, they're not for that use. They're literally for the purpose of a reset/ recharge. Make sure, you know, you're OK, right. You're just not off balance. Now one thing I'll say about that as an employer myself iIs I'm actually considering the usage of mental health issues as spread out in equal, you know, kind of spaced amounts like definitely folks can access them as they need to, but I often see people just not taking enough time away actively. And I really believe, particularly in the creative industry, which is what we're in, that there is no straighter route to burn out. So, on the mental health issue, that's one thing that I've seen companies doing, but this is just an area that's ripe for new direction, right? EAP's are one thing right, so yeah give them a phone number. That's great. Well, maybe there should be like a little more of a concierge aspect to that. Well, great. Help me find a provider because it's hard for me. And I've heard from so many folks right now that even though you can do telehealth visits with your psychologists, psychiatrists, whatever you're looking for, it's really hard to find those who are taking on new patients because these practitioners are so massively overloaded. So maybe there's a concierge aspect that companies should consider where they'll have someone who is, you know, probably outsourced, but who will help their employees find practitioners, get appointments because that in and of itself is extraordinarily time consuming and can really delay folks getting care. So that's that's one idea to kick around that might be beneficial.
Rob Johnson [00:18:42] But I think the other thing that's important to talk about here is the way the attitude is changing. You know, you're a boss, Eileen, and you're saying, Hey, it's going to be important for you to take mental health days. I understand it because, you know, before the value system was, I'm the hardest working person around. I just work, work, work and look at me and now and I think because of COVID, and not a lot of good came out of it. But as it relates to this issue, all of a sudden you're having people that are saying, No, this is a priority. Your mental health does matter and it is OK to take a personal day. It is OK to to need a reset.
Eileen Rochford [00:19:23] You're absolutely right. I'd like to see more companies talking about that and more leaders in business talking about that externally, you know, in a vocal, you know, louder way. I definitely think that would help, you know.We all are well aware of the toll that the last 18 months have taken on us individually in our relationships, our health, all aspects of our health, all kinds of impacts in it. It varies by industry, right? Particularly the toll that it's taken on health care workers. I mean, that's just extraordinary. How is that industry going to recover from this is a massive question, right? But in general terms aside, you know, industry aside, burnout is at its highest rate that it's been in a very long time. Also, there's a syndrome that I know has existed in psychology for some time now. It's called languishing and that it's not depression, but it's not thriving. It's basically this status of No progress. A feeling of little meaning, little advancement and just you're just there.
Rob Johnson [00:20:50] well, you're treading water and you're just staying afloat, but you're not really advancing anything
Eileen Rochford [00:20:55] and similar in some ways to depression. You know, it's very hard to extract joy from the things that you do. So languishing now is is prevalent. That's almost the perfect description of what so many of us are feeling right now. And so as an employer, just think about that, right. It is Beneficial for all employers, all organizations to do what they can to bring people back to a state of beyond languishing. like we got to get out of there. So resetting and studying, you know, the signal of resetting as being an important thing that everybody needs to do is spot on. I was telling you earlier that we're actually for the first time. We're going to close our company over the end of year holidays for it's a it's a lot like a total of, gosh, nine business days, eight business days. It's a lot. And you know, when you string that together with a couple of weekends and it's not PTO and the the company is closing, that sends a huge signal. So what I've talked about with our folks is this is solely for the purpose of resetting. And gosh, don't we all need it? Hello. Like, we're just all feeling numb. We love what we do, and we love the work we're doing with our clients. It's just there's a real sense of fatigue, so having the opportunity where you're not worried about, gosh, I'm going to use up all my vacation days and gosh, what am I going to miss at the office while everyone else is, you know, advancing and, you know, bringing in giant wins. Am I'm going to lose out on all that and just miss out on it. Having the opportunity to do that reset is huge. And again, I know not all companies can do that, but finding some form where you can give your folks the freedom, the agency, to create an environment for reset is absolutely something that I think is really important. And like I said, I'd love to see more leaders doing that.
Rob Johnson [00:23:16] And it's not just a reset, you're improving morale, incredibly, and you know that you're doing that. But to have those days off not count against personal time off and, you know, vacation and things of that nature. I mean, the message you're sending to everybody is, I care about you. I care about you having that downtime to reset and recharge. And then when you come back in the new year, you can set expectations high because you've allowed them this time off that they didn't have already. So this is bonus time for them. And like I said, it's a huge morale builder as well.
Eileen Rochford [00:23:55] That's the hope. Yeah. I just want to get us back to, you know, a better version of stasis that isn't languishing. That's what we're going for.
Rob Johnson [00:24:05] But that's how you do it. OK, so we're going to take this CEO feedback issue down a different path right now. According to recent research by KPMG, only 21 percent of CEOs plan to downsize or have already downsize their physical footprint or office space because of the pandemic and the changing work habits the year prior sixty-nine percent said they would do that. However, these bosses are prioritizing flexibility. Fifty one percent of CEOs are recognizing the quickly evolving future of work demands as we've been talking about, and we'll be looking to invest in shared office spaces to allow for that increased flexibility. Now, just 14 percent of those asked at the beginning of the year said that would be the case. So that's a significant uptick in other words, the CEOs are getting it. They're saying, Hey, this is changing right before my eyes and I need to respond to it. And finally, on this front, 42 percent indicate they're going to look to hire talent that works predominantly remotely, seizing the opportunity to expand their reach into a wider pool of talent. And you don't have the expense of moving them as well. And that's kind of duck-tailing off of what Rich Barton was talking about, too, is finding those people from all over the country that can can be additive, that can can give that input. And they can have, you know, you have diverse voices, but also, you know, your talent pool is much larger now. And we've been talking about that in various ways so far. But this is another take on that whole idea.
Eileen Rochford [00:25:37] Yeah, that all represents just a whole bunch of change, doesn't it? When you think about it in terms of both running an organization but also communicating with your customers or your clients, all those things are going to be impacted by this whole bunch of change. So that's something that I think all of these business leaders who are who are evaluating these situations need to incorporateinyotheir plan is also evaluating how equipped are their people internally to work together effectively in remote situations. What type of training might they introduced to make it possible for all team members, whether they're fully remote, whether they're hybrid, whether they're in the office, are they really able to communicate and function together productively? That's a whole big thing. You know, if you ask me again, my team has been doing that for 18 years, so we had to figure out long before others. How do you communicate effectively when you're hardly ever in the same place physically, but you're constantly working together in a virtual setup? Many of these organizations have never done this other than the time, you know, during COVID, when it was a very high pressure and on all the time environment. And basically what everyone was trying to do during that period was stay alive. Let's, you know, in various versions, metaphorically. So, there's a different psychology when you're just trying to do the work and put the things in place that you need in order to be able to get throug work vs. OK. We're choosing to be this way now. So what is the best version of us in this multi-structured setup? And like I said, I think evaluating how equipped your team members, how equipped your managers, how equipped are the leaders, you know, of business units and in the C-suite to communicate in this very differently structured way and to still be great? So there's a lot of auditing of skills, I think, that needs to be going on. Things like, I really admire one of the organizations we work with. They train their apprentices using for the four lenses training where it involves self-evaluation, peer evaluation. A lot of, you know, personality type quizzes and you got a great picture of why do I react the way that I do? And that information is then shared with your team members and vice versa. So you really understand, OK, this is how this person's mindset works. And in a virtual or even hybrid work structure, knowing all of this is so much more important because you're not going to get the benefit of interpersonal communications, of working with folks live and in person every day. You won't get the benefit of downtime chit chat where you learn about their their personal lives, whether it's their family, their interests, other things. You just don't get as much on that. And in those moments is when you know you establish trust. You get little glimmers of insight and you know what drives them. And those things all come into play, you know, when you're working together. So personally, I think there's a lot of training, support, coaching aspects of communication that organizations need to be thinking about as they make their way through these choices. It's not just black and white, “Do we want to get rid of our office? Do we want to be virtual?” there’s so much more to consider and plan for, You know what I'm saying?
Rob Johnson [00:29:45] Oh, I think you're bringing up a great point here too because the issue is, you know, when I worked in the office, I could always pass, you know, the boss or whoever it is in the hallway and engage them in conversation. And now I can't do that. The only way I do it is if I set up a Zoom meeting or an online virtual meeting and I'm in the meeting with them. And so having that communication, taking that extra step, having the training that you're talking about is vital right now because it has to be purposeful. It has to be OK. I need to think about how I can be a better communicator with my staff Which is largely remote at the moment. So it's not it doesn't happen by accident. It has to happen because you want it to happen. And there are tools out there and there are best practices out there. You just have to employ them. You have to be aware. And that's that's the other thing, the self-awareness that you're talking about as part of the training you were just referencing. That's so important because if you're not aware of what your shortcomings are or where you excel, then it's going to be hard to to have you be as valuable a worker as you might otherwise be. So I think you're bringing up some great points here, Eileen, because now that we work so much remotely and we don't have that interpersonal give and take that you referenced these things, these things have to be done on purpose and they have to be thoughtful and they have to. And you need to take a look at yourself in the lens as you're taking a look at everybody else as well, because that's how you're going to get better. And that's how you're going to communicate not only what happens internally, but what happens externally. OK, you've been remote. This is maybe the new norm. How are you communicating with your stakeholders externally once that you've figured out the internal communication piece? How are you dealing with the people externally to make sure that you're articulating your brand and what you stand for and what you do? Because the world has changed a lot in 18 months and it's possible that the way that you do business or the way that you want to be seen or the way that you prioritize things have all changed.
Eileen Rochford [00:32:01] Absolutely. There was a piece in this August article in Newsweek. It was called The Future of Work is here. So ninety one percent of employees said that they wanted to continue to work from home, while just nine percent said they wanted to return to the office full time. And this, I mean, as as I read this, this that proves the point that we're here to stay right? So preparing how to do everything we just discussed, the adaptations, the accommodations that are much more nuanced about how teams can function together productively and how companies can thrive in this new environment. I just really encourage companies to always be thinking about the communications aspect of that. Seek the communications training support that they may need and definitely outsource kind of to experts the planning of that, particularly consultants who can handle something similar to my reference that for lenses training. That's a great resource. But there are many, many, many others that can be accessed. But I don't think companies should do that alone. I think that they should really utilize an outside expert resource that does, that very specialty area of communications to help their folks adapt because that's really what we're talking about here. We're talking about an evolution in all of the adaptations, you know, that come along with with those changes that they got to think about, of course, because that's small, right?
Rob Johnson [00:33:43] Well, I think the other thing too is we've thrown a lot of numbers of people today, you know, a lot of stats and percentages and this and that. But I think the relevance of it is we were talking about how these CEOs are seeing the importance of the flexibility issue and then the stat you just referred to. 91 percent of employees said they want to continue to work from home. And only nine percent want to return to the office full time. That's a complete attitude shift for the way that people see having a job that has a meaning that has value for them, one that they want to continue to work at. And so the fact that the CEOs are coming that way when everybody overwhelmingly is saying, you know, I like the flexibility I want to work from home, I don't want to be in there full time that that speaks to the fact and it doesn't always work this way. You know, a lot of things trickle downhill, right? You know, the CEO says, do this and everybody says, we're going to do this. And now it's sort of working ground up where employees are saying, You know what? This is how I want to work. And the CEOs have to acknowledge it and have to address it because it's a thing. It's more than a thing. It's the future of how people are going to work.
Eileen Rochford [00:34:57] Yeah, it's today. And it's the future, no doubt about it.
Rob Johnson [00:35:00] So here's the thing. If you are a company, though, that is used to dictating when and how your employees work and feel that it's worked from the office or bust that same Newsweek article you just referenced, Eileen goes on to say businesses that thrive on long-standing practices, shared employee values, and unspoken rules have their work cut out for them in a hybrid environment, and we were touching upon this a second ago. Twenty six percent of Americans are already planning to look for a new job that caters to their post-pandemic hybrid work needs. This trend is especially strong among millennials. And so the thing is, if you say, nope, you got to come to the office, nope. There's one way of doing business, and this is the way we do it. You're going to be missing out on talent, which is what we talked about a little bit earlier.
Eileen Rochford [00:35:51] No doubt about that. My gosh. Great resignation, the great scramble for talent is just going on full force right now. Everybody's seeing it and everybody's feeling it. So it doesn't just mean that you know you'll lose an employee. Potentially you'll also have to train. You also have to find and that's going to be your hardest. No one finding a good replacement in this environment where everybody's got a million options now and they can call the shots. So why not just see the world for what it is and adapt so that you can keep the good talent that you have and not have to invest in training someone else? Start from scratch. Have a lapse in business continuity. You know, as I see it, that's the way to go. Just have an open mindset is the best advice. Take advantage of the opportunities that this new world presents us. Embrace that. And success will be yours.
Rob Johnson [00:37:02] Well, the other issue, too, is not only you're going to have to hire somebody, train them and take all the time to do that. But if somebody left your firm because of your inflexibility, then it's going to be even harder for you to find somebody than it would be knowing what the shifting attitudes are. It's going to be harder for you to find somebody to fill that position because if people are thinking this way now and you say, Nope, nope, we're all in the office five days a week, that's just how we do it. And you know, I'm not flexible on that at all. You're going to be even less attractive to people that would maybe want to take that job. So the issue is it might be a great job. It might be challenging. It might be good pay and all of that. But if you are not looking in the mirror and saying the way that attitudes are changing, then that's going to be a really hard job to fill. And just paying more money may not do that.
Eileen Rochford [00:38:06] No, no, no. And it doesn't guarantee a cultural fit, all kinds of things. There's so much wrapped up in that. So while we've been talking a lot about what work will look like, what work looks in the future, that is and what it works like looks like right now. That is how we saw a piece recently that talks about changing the way we work in general in this New York Times guest essay by Dr. Jonathan Malasic.
Eileen Rochford [00:38:35] Yeah, and it was titled The Future Work Should Be Working Less. He writes, When millions are returning to in-person work after nearly two years of mass unemployment and working from home, the conventional approach to work from the sanctity of the 40-hour workweek to the idea of our ideal of upward mobility led us to widespread dissatisfaction and seemingly ubiquitous burnout. Even before the pandemic, now the moral structure of work is up for grabs, and with labor-friendly economic conditions, workers have little to lose by making creative demands on employers. We now have space to reimagine how work fits into a good life. Pretty interesting.
Rob Johnson [00:39:19] It is interesting and the employer just shared that little piece of that guest essay with us. What do you think about that? I mean, it's like, Well, you're already instituting it with these days off around the holidays that don't count as vacation or personal time off. So then you're already sounds like you're already embracing it to a degree with your workforce.
Eileen Rochford [00:39:46] Yeah, I like to believe in, This is what our folks tell me that we do have a lot of trusts here at our firm because, you know, you never have to wonder about someone's contributions to the organization or are they working those 40 hours you're supposedly paying them for when it's evident that goals are being met? Not only is we're getting done, but is the work meeting the goals that were identified by the client in the onset of the project? And when those goals are being met, when they're being exceeded, when new ideas are regularly being injected into the work that you're doing? The answer is why do I care if they're working 40 hours, right? What I care about is if they're working too many hours and they're bordering on burnout that I care about, right? So his idea of working less. I believe that efficiency leads to greater productivity, which leads to having to work less, somewhat overused idea of work smarter, not harder. We work hard here and I don't mean nothing that we wear that as a badge of honor. What I mean is we work hard to work well and be smart and do great stuff that doesn't get measured by how long were you in the office or how long did it take you to do something? Or how much more above and beyond did you go than me or whoever? Right? I think that's a ridiculous concept. I believe that, frankly, my whole life. So I'm a proponent of the idea of working less. I think that as many have said in these articles that we've been sharing and that we read knowledge work does not equate to the structure of the factory hours and production, output goals. It's totally different in how we fell into that. I'll never know other than it made it easy to measure. I think originally the 40 hour workweek was created to save people from working too much, if I recall, and unions had a lot to do with that. And that was a good thing for many, many, many, many workers 100 years ago. And in many ways it still is. It creates a touchstone, if you will, of this is OK, and I don't have to go beyond that legally for whoever's purposes of that works for them. Great. I think the only thing that really matters is, are you producing really good work in the time that it needs to get done for the goals to be met is really the only thing that matters. That's just personally how I approach it. We've got folks who, you know, they'll get on because their lives work this way. Maybe they're not available from three p.m. to six or seven because they're doing school pickup. They're taking their kids to after-school activities there. Being a parent, they're raising the next generation of human beings, you know? And that is just as important, frankly, if that gap in the workday in no way impacts our production. You know, the goals we need to meet and they log back on because they're night owls and they get on at seven o'clock and they work another two hours. But they do it because they want to. That's the structure of flow that works for them. Great. Why would I ever say no to that? Why would anybody?
Rob Johnson [00:43:24] I can hear people lining up to go work for the Harbinger Group now! They're like, Where do I sign up? Where do I sign up? You know, and this essay really touches upon the themes that we've been touching upon to it sort of reinforces what we're talking about because we're talking about workers and mass reevaluating how they thought about and pursued their careers. Now, why would anybody want to fight long, nasty commutes, have to deal with inflexible schedules and not tend to their mental health needs? It's uncommon. Or at least it has been in the past for workers to have leverage over their bosses in terms of quality of life demands. But things are changing as we have talked about and and it's good to see that CEOs are understanding. Yes, I can't just shout from the mountaintop and say, here's the way we're going to do what everyone now running go do it. And it's working in a much different way now.
Eileen Rochford [00:44:15] No doubt. And even though there were some pretty radical ideas in the in that essay that we're referencing, like this six-hour workday, you know, for the same pay rate, which it sounds silly, but honestly, it's not like it again. It's about did you meet your goals? Anyway, the point is many workers are putting their well-being at the top of their priority list, whereas in the years past we didn't. Let's be honest and I applaud that. I applaud that wholeheartedly. I honestly like I know it was eighteen years ago, but I changed where I worked,how I worked, and who I worked with because I was putting family and health and well-being ahead of all of that other stuff. And I think there are ways to create companies where you can have that, where,you don't have to choose. That's just just my belief. And I mean, we've pretty much proven that here over the past two decades.
Rob Johnson [00:45:14] And you know, it's interesting you had referenced the less hours of the same pay issue because one of those CEOs in the CNN.com piece, we're going back to that one. Hamdi Ulukaya of Chobani said the future of work must include fair and equitable compensation, part-time options, robust benefits packages, parental leave, extensive health and safety programs, and a positive and inclusive environment. These elements should no longer be revolutionary. They should be the norm. Now he's not talking about was less work for the same pay, even though that's something you said you don't think is unreasonable. He's talking about making sure that there are plenty of incentives for talent who may want to Work for you and that you're addressing their needs in 2021.
Eileen Rochford [00:45:55] I agree one thousand percent with everything that you said, there's no reason why more companies can't create structures like what he's described, it's about making choices and living your values. So if as an organization, if you're going to value Family, if that's part of your value proposition externally and you know, the values that you live internally. Well, then you best create a structure where people can be with their families during the times when life is lived and not just have it fit within a nine to five 40 hour workweek box. There is no reason, in my opinion, why that can't be accommodated increasingly. And I firmly firmly believe that and I've lived by that, you know, like I've said for a couple of decades. So 100 percent endorse everything that he's saying.
Rob Johnson [00:47:00] I mean, the great news here is that this is becoming the new norm, and the way of doing business in the past is, for the most part, is not going to be the way of doing business in the future. And the fact that leaders of companies are understanding this and that are embracing it and aren't, you know, sort of, you know, thumbing their nose at it, I think, is tremendous progress. And it is indicative that they're paying attention. They're hearing the needs of their workforce and not only hearing those needs, but putting into practice ideas and processes that are going to make them efficient workers who are going to run through a wall for you. If you're if you're if you're respecting their unique needs and the needs of the current worker, you're going to have a really good roster of talent.
Eileen Rochford [00:47:59] No doubt. Totally agree. Well, I've got a couple of closing thoughts that I just want to share. I think it's really important for companies to recognize the impact that all of these changes are going to have. And there are so many different ways, but they're really going to impact external perceptions and external expectations just as much as they will impact how things are done and how you communicate internally. So don't lose sight of that. Be planning for that as well, because if customers and future employees are expecting things like we've discussed here such as empathy, compassion, support of mental health, diversity of your workforce, diversity of ideas, that all means that companies and leaders, they've got to be open to showing the world these new aspects of their work, how they work, etc. and of themselves, you know, and of the organization. So you can't just be making your plan for how to adapt and kind of hunkering down and doing that. In today's world, there is no such thing as a silo or a vacuum. everybody expects to and can find out so much about you. Just keep all this in mind and recognize that you've got to have that to track, right. You need to address all this internally and handle all of the communications repercussions implications for adaptations. But you've also got to be thinking about, OK, how do I keep up with making sure what we're doing is known outside of our walls? So that that's my significant closing thought for today's discussion
Rob Johnson [00:49:47] My closing thought is sort of putting a bow on a lot of this. And that is to say, this is the new norm. If you're waiting for the way it was to come back, it's not. And to see some of these numbers bear out the fact that the CEOs understand this and that are addressing this issue on a regular basis is very important. So my thing is we're not returning to the way it was. This is the way it is now. And if you're already on board. Good for you. And a lot of CEOs are. And if you're not onboard yet, you're going to be missing out on talent. You're going to be missing out on having the most productive workers and you may not be as good a company as you once were. That's my final thought.
Eileen Rochford [00:50:31] Great. Good thoughts right on totally with you all the way. So that's it for another episode of Can You Hear Me? I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of The Harbinger Group.
Rob Johnson [00:50:41] And I'm Rob Johnson of Rob Johnson Communications. We hope you will join us next time, and we thank you for joining us this time, and you can listen to us anywhere you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts and more. Take care.