With inflation soaring, interest rates being hiked regularly to combat it, and the market in a tailspin, whether you want to believe it or not, we are in a recession, a technical recession to be sure. With so much uncertainty facing companies that have already weathered the unprecedented pandemic crisis, it’s natural for employees to be feeling a little nervous. Join us, Can You Hear Me? Co-hosts Eileen Rochford and Rob Johnson, as we discuss the communications challenges facing these companies right now., and ask the question “Are Layoffs Coming to a Company Near You?
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Rob Johnson [00:00:53] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the Can You Hear Me? Podcast. I'm Rob Johnson, president of Rob Johnson Communications.
Eileen Rochford [00:01:03] And I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the marketing and strategy firm The Harbinger Group. One of our primary objectives on the Can You Hear Me? podcast is to discuss communications best practices for companies and their C-Suites. At the moment, from an employee standpoint, nothing is more top of mind than whether your company may be faced with layoffs, especially as we endure this new recession.
Rob Johnson [00:01:29] That's right. Already, Eileen, in 2022, some very well known companies- and I could go on a huge list, but I'm just going to give you a couple of them- have been hit with mass layoffs. Which according to the website Mondo, mass layoffs defined as at least 50 employees being laid off within 30 days or less, resulting in the laid off employees equaling more than one third of the company's workforce or 500 employees are laid off within 30 days or less. No matter how large the company's workforce. Do you follow? It's a little hard to follow, but that's what a mass layoff would be considered those two things right there. So let's think of some of the boldface names; Pelaton. They've just had their fourth workforce reduction and in the last couple of days. Snapchat, Netflix, Carvana, I could go on and on. There's some other big names as well. These are just a few of the names that have been instituting mass layoffs this year. So obviously that's a concern. And you know, the other interesting thing, too, when I do work with my financial clients, they're like, "oh, based on the numbers, we've been in a recession for a couple of months." Numbers like, well, we're going into a recession. And all the financial experts who get asked at cocktail parties, seminars, meetings, "how's the economy doing?" They're the ones that are like, "we're in it." So that's why I would preface this whole conversation with- we're in one. We're certainly in a technical one, whether people are saying it or not and I'm not trying to talk it into existence.
Eileen Rochford [00:03:02] Yeah, no doubt we get it. It's real. It's here and it's taking various shapes, depending on where you sit, either where you're employed, what sector you're in, what's your own financial situation. But it's real. I was watching- gosh it must have been May- May, June, when in the real estate sector we saw huge names that were just, you know, killing it for 18 straight months. All of the sudden laying off huge numbers of people like Redfin, places like that. Realtor.com, right. And that alone said- uh oh something is going down in the real estate market. We didn't even really see prices, you know, change in house or even number of days on the market. We didn't really start to see that on a large scale until August or so. So it just shows you that they're watching the data in the financial services. Financial Industry Company is doing the same. They're well aware we're here and that's why we've been seeing these waves of layoffs.
Rob Johnson [00:04:10] And you really bring up a good point, too Eileen, because the real estate sector in particular, it's like, hey, early, you know, Q1, beginning of Q2 of 2022, it's like, "hey, this thing, this thing still firing up. This is great." And as you pointed out, you know, mid-spring, late spring, you're seeing, you know, some people that are, you know, kind of contracting and whoa.
Eileen Rochford [00:04:34] You know it was coming.
Rob Johnson [00:04:35] "Well, gosh, why would that be happening?" Because the market's still hot and then the market cools off and then, of course, it cools off, you know, in recent months because they're hiking interest rates, you know, pretty high. And buying a house, you know, isn't as affordable as it was eight months ago.
Eileen Rochford [00:04:54] Certainly not if you have to finance it. No doubt about it. Yep.
Rob Johnson [00:04:57] Right.
Eileen Rochford [00:04:58] And that's going to be the case from everything that we read for quite some time. But, you know, like we said, the reason why those layoffs have started and in the sectors where they've started is because these C-suite leaders, they're paying very close attention to the data and the analytics, and they're taking steps. They're making moves. But I read just yesterday that some new survey information indicates that CEOs are expecting this recession to be short, which is good news.
Rob Johnson [00:05:31] That's great. Any good news we can pass along is terrific news.
Eileen Rochford [00:05:33] Yeah, the expected to be short is fantastic. So and we've seen this before, you know, these recessions that aren't entrenched, that kind of blip up, blip down. So hopefully that's where we're going to be. But right now we are dealing with the ramifications of a recession environment. So we're not just simply talking about the layoffs themselves here today, but what we're going to focus on is how to communicate the bad news to employees, because that's really what we talk about here. We talk about best practices in communication, at work and as a leader. So if you're the boss and you're getting frequent questions about "are we going to have layoffs?" Then, you know, let's be real you got to be transparent. And while you can't share everything or tell them everything that you know, you definitely have to acknowledge the issue. It's present, it's possible. And people's feelings around this really touchy, sensitive, important subject. So if you are pondering layoffs to trim your budget, it's best- just don't say you aren't looking at that as a cost saving measure. Instead, maybe say something like that "while we don't want to see anyone lose their job, we're looking at many forms of cost savings and a workforce reduction is one of them. That's one of the things that we're considering." So that's one way to approach the subject.
Rob Johnson [00:06:57] And you can look at it from the standpoint too, Eileen, you can also let people know, "here are the things we're doing to try to weather this storm, this recession storm." And if you don't focus only on the workforce reduction, then they're like, "Oh, they are looking at other things as well. They're not just going to come, you know, pull out the hatchet and get rid of people the minute they see a sign of, you know, of a problem." The other reason I feel so strongly about what you're talking about here is because employees are vulnerable at a time like this and they're craving information and they need something. They need to know where things are going a little bit. Again, as you pointed out, you're not going to give them the keys to the kingdom and tell them every little internal meeting that's occurred. That's not proper. What is proper, though, is to show them the respect and have the transparency to do this. And the reason I bring this up, there is a company I know fairly well. Several years ago, not a client, when all the pandemic stuff was starting, the boss was going around saying "people were asking because people ask right? Do you have anything you want to ask me?" And people when they're nervous, they ask you, "are you going to have any layoffs?" Oh, no, we're fine. We're great. Everything's going to be terrific. Don't worry about it. I want to put your mind at ease. All that, right, as a preamble to what I would consider a mass layoff at that particular company in two weeks. Two weeks later- bloodbath.
Eileen Rochford [00:08:22] Two weeks later!
Rob Johnson [00:08:24] Bloodbath. Two weeks prior, boss going around, "no, we're fine." That is the absolute 180-degree opposite direction you need to be going in if you're a leader in business. And not surprisingly, that person doesn't have a job anymore. However, that is not the way to treat people. That is not the way- you have to tell them a little something. And that's why we're driving this point home again and again. And I feel like that anecdote illustrates the misstep that occurred there and people were just devastated.
Eileen Rochford [00:08:56] Definitely. Further, I would say that, you know, addressing the issue along the lines of what we suggested, saying we don't want to see anyone lose their job, we're looking at many forms of cost savings, etc., that kind of approach. You're not skirting the issue. Honestly, people want to know that you're looking at many forms of cost savings. They want to know you have a plan and you're taking this very seriously, head on, and considering all the options that are going to help them, you know, possibly keep their job. So it's a great message and one when you don't have the answers that it's the right one to fall back on.
Rob Johnson [00:09:35] Yeah, I really feel strongly about that because, you know, and we've done things in the past, especially as it related to the pandemic, but even as we're coming out of the pandemic, the Edelman Trust Barometer that I know you're a big fan of.
Eileen Rochford [00:09:47] Mm hmm.
Rob Johnson [00:09:47] And in recent years, the most trustworthy source for employees was their employer. And, you know, and I think we've made the point in the past on this podcast- that was not always the case. It'd be like, "oh, my boss said something. I don't believe that." And then this unprecedented thing happens, and all of a sudden they're really looking for reliable information from the higher ups, from the C-suite, from the CEO at their company. And so we need to make sure that we're putting all of this into proper context, that, you know, that's the way the world's going anyway. Even before a recession, when we had this thing called the pandemic, that nobody knew how to navigate through initially because nobody had ever gone through it. We were looking toward the employer for reliable information.
Eileen Rochford [00:10:42] Absolutely. I'm curious, Rob, in your prior career, it's likely that you did not experience personally any kind of like being laid off, but you may have been part of layoffs in organizations where you were. Is that the case?
Rob Johnson [00:10:58] Yeah, it was it was really tough. It was always tough. Yeah. And and you're sitting there as an organization and you're trying to, you know, do your best, do your best work, make more money for the company, do all those sorts of things, and then you get some momentum and then something happens. And sometimes it was just a corporate, "hey, we're just going to get rid of people." And there was nothing overarching. There was no big recession, although in the big recession a bunch of people were laid off. But I have to say, it's just a kick to the gut whenever that happens. And you are sitting there and you realize, okay, less of these people that I'm going into proverbial battle with are around. There's going to be, you know, do more with less. And also, I've lost some friends, you know, that I'm not going to see every day who are really good professionals. And so that's certainly a tough thing, and I never liked it. And then, you know, you'd sit there and have to kind of get your wits about you and then say, "okay, I've got to do my best, you know, for the company."
Eileen Rochford [00:12:07] Yeah.
Rob Johnson [00:12:07] And so that's how it went. But you always felt like, oh, two steps forward. And then that would happen to be like, oh, three steps back, you know, those two steps forward felt good. But whenever you're contracting like that- and not that it's easier when there's a recession, when there's truly, you know, revenue is drying up because of it in that particular or any industry. But you just feel like, "oh, gosh, I'm giving everything I have to this place, and I'm glad I'm still here." I'm sorry other people aren't.
Eileen Rochford [00:12:50] Mhm, yeah that feeling of helplessness.
Rob Johnson [00:12:50] And, you know, I have a question for you as a CEO, and I realize, you know, we're not sitting here talking about Fortune 100 companies necessarily, but as a CEO, because I was doing some of the research for this particular podcast, and I was interested that CEOs might be a little more proactive than they might normally have been if the pandemic hadn't happened. Obviously, looking through that prism is almost impossible because it did happen. But the point I'm trying to make is I was reading that that CEOs were caught off guard by the pandemic, that they're always thinking three to 6 to 9 months ahead. And this one caught them. And it happened to a lot of companies. And so now the suggestion is that people are really, really looking that six months out and as you were talking about the real estate industry, for instance, you know, "hey, everything's going great, right?" And then all of a sudden "why all hve these layoffs?" And then, "okay, here's August, that's why." Do you think as a CEO, that your experiences during a pandemic might make you more, you know, open eyed to what's coming down the pike. Even, I mean, people have gone through recessions before. But do you think that there's a heightened sense of awareness in C-Suites?
Eileen Rochford [00:14:18] I do believe the answer is yes. I'm basing that largely on my experiences working with client companies that are quite large because as you know, we're a very small company. I can speak to personal experience a little bit, but I don't think it's as relevant. But yes, I definitely see C-suite leaders are paying far more attention to the data at 360 and in all the areas of operations and services, etc., they're looking at it inside it out in different ways that they didn't before. And one piece of advice that I saw from the CEO of West Monroe Partners recently in a great blog post, which I'll linked to in the show notes. Kevin was talking about the not falling prey to too much agility, right? That maintaining your true north, despite this new abundance of data and this new tendency to not want to be caught flat footed like largely everyone was by the pandemic. So, you got to find that balance between reading the data, taking advantage of what the data tells you and recognizing, okay, some of this information I can put by the wayside safely and just kind of monitor and I don't need to react immediately to it. And some of the information you do need to act on quite quickly, much more so than you would have probably pre-pandemic. That's what I've seen.
Rob Johnson [00:15:55] So you don't consider it to be an overreaction, in other words?
Eileen Rochford [00:16:00] For the layoffs that we're seeing?
Rob Johnson [00:16:01] For the lay off- Yeah, for the person that's pondering what's coming down, what's coming ahead, oh, my gosh, it looks like there's going to be interest rate hikes. You know, and again, I'm thinking about the real estate industry because that impacts it so heavily. You don't feel like these CEOs are being over reactionary. You feel like they're doing their proper due diligence and really zeroing in on the analytics.
Eileen Rochford [00:16:24] Well, again, I'm not, you know, intimately involved in any of these companies, but from what I've read, it really looks like they're able to see almost at a micro-micro level the fluctuations that are taking place in key indicators that point to, there's going to be a downturn. They've got, you know, in these and again, it's more of the online platforms for real estate sales like Realtor.com, Redfin, Zillow, etc. They have information and they have a volume of data that never existed before. And if you think about it, even the volume of transactions that took place in the last 18, 24 months. That jacked up the data that they have, and while some may say, "well, it's an anomaly, that was a period of time we're never going to see again." I don't know. I think that they know a lot because of that information. And they may have staffed up to a degree that was pretty overstaffed in kind of normal transaction rate times. So they had to take quick action and it's just based on everything that I've read. It seems like they did what they needed to do.
Rob Johnson [00:17:41] And I'm also impressed and I have a couple of clients that are always, even when times are good, no pandemic, they're having record years, which doesn't happen to everybody, but it did happen to some. But even then, you're always, you know, looking out of the side of your eye, like "what's coming here? What's coming there?" And what I found with a couple of them is that they're always looking for any little bumps in the road. Not big potholes, but bumps. And they're adjusting accordingly when those bumps are happening, which means when the big pothole or they're getting ready to hit the big pothole, it's not as jarring as it might have been. Does that makes sense in terms of the way you're doing business and not just looking at staff reductions as a, you know, solution? And let me give you one example. For instance, you know, I can think of one company is pretty aggressive recruiting and recruiting diverse candidates and doing that sort of thing. And sometimes when little bumps hit, it's like, "all right, we're still recruiting. Let's pull back a little bit." And those little things sometimes have made a difference. And so when it gets to the bigger thing, they're better positioned. And I'm not saying everybody is, but I don't know if you've run across that with any of your clients.
Eileen Rochford [00:18:55] Yeah, especially right now. One of the last things that they want to do and they've gone through so much to battle for, they're either keeping the talent that they have or attracting new talent in areas where they were deficient. One of the last things they want to have to do is cut back on the people that they've had because it's been really hard, right? Amidst everything that we've talked about on many shows, the Great Recession, quiet quitting, all of it. So they're definitely looking as they should at those bumps and potholes, I think it was.
Rob Johnson [00:19:33] Right, right.
Eileen Rochford [00:19:33] And they're using them as indicators of, "okay, I should work on this instead," or "we're going to focus our attention here instead." Yeah, absolutely.
Rob Johnson [00:19:44] What it sounds like is we're talking about creating better bosses. Something crazy like the pandemic has really raised the heightened sense of awareness, I think, in C-Suites. And perhaps it's made them not only, we talked about this too, during when all that was going on about being mindful of the emotional and it varies to being aware of what's going on in your employees' minds, but also just being better planners and being able to see a little bit farther out. And when you do look, you're able to see it with greater acuity. So I feel like maybe that's what's happening here to a certain degree. Not to paint this only with a negative broad brush like, "Hey, we're in a recession." And certainly when you said, hey, some of the research you're doing states that a lot of people believe it will be a brief one, which I love to hear, but also that we're talking about maybe people are becoming better leaders that are bosses.
Eileen Rochford [00:20:40] Yeah, there's been such an investment in so many initiatives internally that I've watched unfold at multiple companies over the last two and a half years in areas like communications as leaders, which is wonderful. Investments in, you know, the D&I initiatives, so much of that has to do with shared understanding, acceptance, communication. So even the emphasis that, you know what, everything that brought the D&I initiatives to the forefront, I think that's had a very positive impact on developing better leaders, better bosses, better communicators.
Rob Johnson [00:21:19] I agree 100%. Well, while the big boss is not likely to be discussing this widespread with his or her employees, we're talking about layoffs. It is likely the CEO will have that unpleasant task fall on the shoulders of their managers. And I found some pretty interesting sound advice for managers on communicating the bad news. This is by way of our rating consulting group. First of all, leaders must realize this is an internal communications issue, and there must be buy in from those who are going to have be having a bulk of the unpleasant conversations, i.e. your managers. So this is I think, you know, we preach this all the time with our clients in general, not even related to layoffs, but we're talking about you got to sell it. The internal part comes first. You can't go externally and tell everybody what you're doing or how great you are and that sort of thing. You have to have buy in internally. So I think this just, you know, reinforces that whole notion, don't you?
Eileen Rochford [00:22:16] Mm hmm. Absolutely.
Rob Johnson [00:22:18] And so here's a couple of ideas that you need to ponder. First of all, as it relates to the manager being the one that's carrying the proverbial water, you must clarify the manager's role. And as I just mentioned, they're going to be the ones having the difficult conversations. And since direct reports are such a vital source of information, they must be properly equipped to give that accurate information. So in other words, you know, you might see the CEO every once in a while or there may be a company meeting or things of that nature. But your your direct report, your manager is somebody that you're going to be having those daily interactions with. And so they need to be properly equipped. Number two, make the internal comms channels your company uses easy to navigate. So what we're talking about here is you're raising your manager's skills on your communications channels. And what that does is, it strengthens the work environment. So I think people understand everybody has different internal comms channels they use for their companies just to make sure that those managers have gotten the proper training and are properly, you know, comfortable with using it and being able to communicate with that. Obviously, face to face, you know, Zoom meetings, whatever. In-person, that's always ideal, but that is not always the reality and so you need to make sure they know how to communicate on those channels. And then number three, give them some clear instructions. There's no more important time to prepare managers to deliver information in a genuine way than when the business faces challenges. So it's easy. "Hey, times are great and make sure you're communicating that." Everybody can do that. But can everybody- a manager on up- deliver, you know, this bad news in an authentic way, in a caring way and in a semi-transparent way? These are the things we're talking about here. So make sure you equip your managers so they can have those meaningful conversations with their teams. And I know you talk to your teams all the time, Eileen, and I'd love to hear what you think about some of these ideas.
Eileen Rochford [00:24:31] Mm hmm. It's times like these when good communication skills in leaders are truly appreciated, right. Anybody can deliver good news. It's easy. But delivering bad news is something that truly takes preparation and effort. And I think it's a skill that has to be taught. I don't think it's one that people just innately understand. Delivering good news, it's a lot easier to grasp.
Rob Johnson [00:25:01] Oh, sure.
Eileen Rochford [00:25:02] "Oh, here's how I convey enthusiasm and excitement." But, you know, the gravity and kind of confidence that you have to convey. All those kinds of things. You have to teach your employees how to do that and make sure you're selecting the ones you have the best skills for this job. Just because someone is at a manager level, if they don't also have the communication skills needed to do this well, you could be doing yourself a huge disservice by having them handle this communication. So really evaluate- is this person prepared? Do they have the right skills yet? If they don't, then you might have to come up with a different construct.
Rob Johnson [00:25:47] Can I ask you a question as it relates to that? Because you really brought up a good point about having the managers being good communicators. And I know it's sort of like patting ourselves on the back here, like preaching to the choir because that's what we do. But if you're in a position as a boss and there's somebody that has let's say it's a financial position, say, a CFO, and this is all anecdotal. I'm not talking about anybody in particular, certainly at your company or anybody else. And they have great financial skills and they're not very good communicators. They're a candidate for this job. How do you how do the scales sort of chip in one way or the other? Or you have somebody who is very good at the financial part of it and they're an excellent communicator. Who's going to get that job? Are you going to get that genius CFO numbers person and then coach them up and give them the professional development they need to do what you said earlier just a minute ago about being, you know, taught certain things or are you going to say, "gosh, in this current business climate, I know this person has the numbers down, but I mean, listen, numbers can make or break you." So I'm not minimizing that at all. But I just think it's it's something that I'm interested to hear based on somebody that sits where you sit or that consults with people who sit in those seats.
Eileen Rochford [00:27:12] I would imagine that that decision is going to come down to culture of the organization and priorities. Because if the financial data and the analysis of that data is the most important thing in that role and for the company's success, you can shore up people skills in communications, and you can also just make their role about what they do best. Right? If you need to have someone who has the very good financial skills and is also a good communicator, for whatever reason, you know, based on what your company does, there are candidates who have that. It's rare when you look at that particular combination, but you can absolutely teach anyone how to be a better communicator. Will you elevate them to a level of being great? Probably not. Some of this, you can be naturally a little bit better at this. But I mean, I can share from my own perspective. Let's use marketing as an example. I'm a very good marketer and I always have been and a fairly good communicator when it comes to the industry that I'm in, communicating about what we do and how it's done, well. Now I have been tasked three times in my career at a very young point, I think I wasn't even 30. Three different times I had to lay people off and I was given the job of doing it. And imagine that. Okay, so I am inside of companies where people who report to me are going to be given the news by me that they're not going to be employed anymore. That was one of the most terrifying and upsetting things I've ever had to do. And in one instance, the last instance, thankfully, the H.R. department was there. They were present with me, with us and a couple other, you know, like VP level folks delivering the news to the people who were being laid off, which was very helpful and we definitely got some coaching in advance of it as well. So the third time was definitely better given, you know, more support. So despite the fact that, you know, I'm really, really good in a communications industry, communicating bad news that was impacting someone's life directly was not easy for me at all. And if I hadn't been prepped as well as I had been the third time around, I don't think I would have agreed to do it honestly. It's that upsetting.
Rob Johnson [00:29:57] That is really interesting.
Eileen Rochford [00:29:58] Yeah. So there you have it. I mean, I'll have a couple more things to add here. Like think about the authority. Like who really has the authority to communicate these types of messages? Now, traditionally, when someone's been laid off, the person who's been laid off, they're told by their direct manager and probably someone from H.R.. Like it's like a duo, right?
Rob Johnson [00:30:22] Yes. Yes.
Eileen Rochford [00:30:23] But who tells the rest of the company this news? Who tells the rest of the team this news? There's a, I wouldn't call it a hierarchy, but there's certainly good ways to do it and better ways to do it, right? And I think people, when we talk about authority, people of high credibility and authority are the people who should be delivering this kind of news. So your CEO should be taking responsibility and communicating companywide, for example. Even in a small organization. Don't miss these steps. It matters. Rules matter. Credibility and authority matter.
Rob Johnson [00:31:02] Right now, the way you treat people on their way out the door matters.
Eileen Rochford [00:31:06] It sure does. Absolutely. Well, we have some do's and don'ts as it relates to delivering tough news. Bad news, right. So, let's roll through some of that. I'm sure people love to get some guidance on this very, very hard thing to do. In general, it's best to communicate directly and to convey, you know, as much strength from experience as you can. In other words, you know, saying things like, we've been through this before. We know we can handle it. We have a clear plan. We're going to get through this together and here's how we're going to do it.
Rob Johnson [00:31:51] Give them some specifics. So. Yes.
Eileen Rochford [00:31:53] Yeah. And employees are starving for information. Don't be shy to overcommunicate in the sense that allow multiple conversations. When I say overcommunicate, I certainly don't mean give more detail than you should. It's more, allow them to ask questions. Because sometimes it can take time to absorb what's actually been said. You know, if they want to come back to you later in the afternoon and ask questions, if they want to ask questions the following day because they've thought about it overnight and they've, you know, conjured some new worries. Let that happen. It's got to happen.
Rob Johnson [00:32:29] Yeah, and I'm glad you clarified that, because it's not like I'm going to tell you everything is going on. No, no, no, you're talking about the frequency with which you communicate or engaging people and just kind of helping them through some of this, you know, kind of process, some of this information. So that's very important and the strength from experience thing, I think is very important. So I think something that's relevant to that would be, listen, this company went through, you know, the Great Recession in 2008. It was debilitating for a lot of places, a lot of companies. It was caused by something different than what's causing it now. But because we went through that, we are equipped to deal with what's going on. Now we have a template. That doesn't mean there's not going to be cost savings and layoffs and things of that nature. But we know how to work through this and we're going to be better on the back end of it. So I think that giving people hope when you know that you can weather this storm, I think is a really important thing to to share with people.
Eileen Rochford [00:33:34] Definitely and conveying optimism, as you put it, hope and along with, you know, some security like we've done what we needed to do. And the team that's here is going to be the team that we take forward to, you know, better days. That is as much as you can convey some security, be honest, not overly sharing of information, but everything that you say must be said from a place of honesty and be clear. But while doing so, infuse your message with security and notes of optimism for sure.
Rob Johnson [00:34:12] Yeah. Agreed. Now to several don'ts on this list. Don't make empty statements. Don't don't say something that means nothing. Because then and in other words, if you make a statement and then there's more questions than there were prior to you making that statement, that's an empty statement that you don't need. You don't need to go down that road. You just don't. Also, don't overcomplicate the message. Don't make it so confusing that people are like, what did he or she say? What did you just say? What? What does that mean? Everybody's looking at each other. You've been in meetings like that before, I'm sure, when you were working somewhere else, I'm sure you've never had any of those at The Harbinger Group. But as an employee, I'm sure that you'd have this, you know, companywide meeting or you'd be in a room together and somebody say something. The boss would and everybody look each other like, "Huh?" That's overcomplicating the message. And then do not conduct paralysis by analysis. That means you're over analyzing an issue. You're talking about things. You're starting to bring up things that aren't really relevant to the most important message you're trying to convey. So you start analyzing and analyzing and analyzing it, and that's also going to cause people confusion.
Eileen Rochford [00:35:23] And angst.
Rob Johnson [00:35:24] Yeah, right. So I'm just wondering what you think about those in terms of things to stay away from.
Eileen Rochford [00:35:31] Yeah, I can add a couple. I think those are dead on. 100% right. But I can add some more too.
Rob Johnson [00:35:38] Please do.
Eileen Rochford [00:35:39] Never go out too early with the information about something super sensitive like layoff information. You got to be darn ready and have looked at this, you know, backwards and forwards, underneath on top, all the different ways in order to be sure that you're prepared for the questions that are going to come up. So just don't go out early. Just share it when the time is right and only when the time is right. That's guidance that I would give for sure.
Rob Johnson [00:36:13] Excellent.
Eileen Rochford [00:36:13] There's no rush to share something like that. And, you know, in most cases there isn't. So just take the extra day if we need to or a week, whatever it may be, and get your communications plan buttoned up. First and foremost, of course, all of the financials, all of the other aspects that are involved with layoffs. But you've got to do that. That goes without saying. But we're here to talk about communications. So take the time to make sure that you have a very well constructed thought through communications plan and the cascade of how the information is going to be shared, where the information is going to be shared, don't rush it. So that would be advice. And, you know, I have a do I should have added this in the deuce. I guess I was going to frame it in the don't leave your your people unsupported in the wake of bad news. So that's why I had it under my "don't" column, right. So do provide. Think about providing. I think it's especially right now a really good idea considering everyone's current state of mind. And we talked about this a lot on our last episode when the show theme was "how we can all get along better at the office." You know, things are just so different. It seems interactions right now at work are fraught with anger and things that we really haven't experienced to the degree that we are experiencing it right now. So the idea that we talked about in last episode was, kindness and respect and operating from, you know, a place of empathy as much as possible is what's going to help us get through that. Well, let's apply that to this situation. People aren't in the greatest state of mind to begin with. So if you're going to go through a very difficult delivery of news and the aftermath of those who are left having to possibly do the same amount of work with less resources, you really better consider supplementing the mental health resources that you make available for your employees so that they can get through this without burning out even faster than the pace that we all seem to be on right now. So I would advise that's kind of, as I put it under the "don't", but what I really mean is it's a do.
Rob Johnson [00:38:40] It could be a do or a don't. But the point that you're making is very important. And I would just say this, too, and I know you didn't bring it up for me to give you a pat on the back. But I think one of the things that's always impressed me about you leading The Harbinger Group is even before the pandemic, this was always a concern of yours, the mental health piece. The "how are you doing?" piece. That "what can I do to help you?" piece. And now a lot of people are doing it because the pandemic was so dramatic. But I feel like this is something you've always done, and I think that's really important. And so kudos to you for looking at that as a priority, not just, you know, in the the prism of the last two years, but well beyond that and into the future.
Eileen Rochford [00:39:17] Thank you. And I really excited to see there's even new companies coming on the scene that are offering psychiatric and therapists employee services, not for H.R. leaders. And so they're giving. It's like- I'm trying to think of one right now, but I'll include it in the shownotes. There have been a couple that are- it's so great because it's digitally delivered information for people. But honestly, I believe it's very relevant for C-suite leaders and managers as well to read about, say, the topic of psychological safety, for example. That's one that's come up so often in the last couple of years. And I'm hearing it, I'm seeing it. And even client companies, I'm delighted by this. But these companies that provide services like that, they're doing so for companies of all sizes. So take advantage if you haven't before, especially if you're a smaller company, maybe even midsize, and you haven't supplemented what's available through your, I think, it's employer resource programs.
Rob Johnson [00:40:35] ERGs.
Eileen Rochford [00:40:36] Yeah. Those are like, okay employee yeah the ERPs(?) I think. Meaning more like the service side so. "Oh yeah well go get your counseling through our benefits plan." That's great that it's paid for but can't you access it at work? Is it easy? And also, are you equipping your leaders, you know, with their own understanding of how to establish psychological safety, how to be supportive and be empathetic and all of those things which, you know, honestly helps them become better communicators. So encouraged, particularly the small business and mid-sized business leaders to look into supplementing their mental health services. I think it's called "I feel online" is one, but I'll clarify that and put it in the show notes. I'm super impressed by even the free information that they have in their blogs, you know, read up and help your people learn how to be more empathetic. And delivering bad news will become easier because, you know, you're kind of nurturing that ability as you go all along versus in the moment trying to create good communicators. Because you gotta, see what I mean?
Rob Johnson [00:41:58] I don't like to sit here and come up with, you know, podcast ideas for future episodes. But I just heard somebody in a seminar who's right in that space that you're talking about. And I'm thinking she would be an excellent guest, so I don't want to say her name. I won't say when it's going to happen because, you know, we got a lot of legwork to do there. But I was like, maybe we should make... You know, I'm sitting here, you know, and this should be part of our internal monologue. But externally here, I'm like, maybe that should be a future episode in the next month or so, and so we'll make it happen.
Eileen Rochford [00:42:26] Oh, that's great.
Rob Johnson [00:42:27] I think you would love it.
Eileen Rochford [00:42:28] I would love it, as you know. Absolutely. All right. Well, I think you've done a great job of covering this topic, and I hope everyone's around the information very useful. But that's going to do it for another episode of Can You Hear Me? And I'm Eileen Rochford.
Rob Johnson [00:42:44] I'm Rob Johnson. We thank you for listening, as always. And remind you, you can find Can You Hear Me? Wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts and more. Thanks for listening.