As teams become more diverse in age, backgrounds, perspectives, and life experiences, it is becoming increasingly challenging to get those members of your team on the same page. In this episode of the Can You Hear Me? Podcast, co-hosts Eileen Rochford and Rob Johnson discuss “The Hidden Traps of Team Dynamics.
All the Difference: Six Leadership Actions to Bridge Perspectives, Strengthen Teams, and Create Value, Featured Book: https://store.hbr.org/product/all-the-difference-six-leadership-actions-to-bridge-perspectives-strengthen-teams-and-create-value/10821
Four Hidden Traps of Team Dynamics: https://hbr.org/2026/07/4-hidden-traps-of-team-dynamics
Overcommunicate: A Guide for Business Executives and Aspiring Leaders, Rob Johnson's Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GWQ9XJNP?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback
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Eileen Rochford: Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of the "Can You Hear Me?" podcast. I'm Eileen Rochford, CEO of the marketing and strategy firm, The Harbinger Group.
Rob Johnson: And I'm Rob Johnson, President of Rob Johnson Communications. Today, we are talking about your team. Chances are that team is becoming more diverse, from generational background and life experience perspectives. When those factors intersect, how can you make sure you're getting the most out of them? Today, we're discussing the hidden traps of team dynamics. In a recent article for the Harvard Business Review, "Four Hidden Traps of Team Dynamics," they highlight those four challenges coupled with six solutions for them. You know how we feel about HBR as a professional resource, we comment on it all the time on this program. And the article comes from a recently published book, All the Difference: 6 Leadership Actions to Bridge Perspectives, Strengthen Teams, and Create Value. So, there's a little background.
Eileen Rochford: I've personally read All the Difference, so I'm really excited to have this conversation! Awesome book. Yep, I'm very, very, very excited about this. We're going to dive into what sounds like a super meaty subject, but we're going to kind of boil it down and share our own overlay of, you know, what we think about all this. The four landmines, sorry, that derail leaders... We're going to start our discussion with certainty, and that means being certain that your perspective is the correct one, and differing points of view are incorrect. Now, certainty probably creates a lot of issues inside teams, wouldn't you think, Rob?
Rob Johnson: I think there's no question about that. And I know that we're giving people lots of information, and I'm not trying to bring it back to the Over-Communicator book that I wrote, but this is right about chapter four. It's sort of about the illusion we're communicating when we're not, and it relates, I think, to... you think you're correct, you think you're communicating something, but you're not communicating something that you thought you were, and you didn't take into consideration other people's points of view.
Eileen Rochford: Definitely. Another point that I think is connected, also talked about somewhat in your book, but in lots of other places, too, is self-awareness. Don't you think that certainty... if you really, really, really dig in often, and you find yourself walking into conversations or in the midst of, you know, maybe a little bit of a feisty debate, and your feeling is with an unequivocal certainty that "I'm right," that often is just a sign that you're lacking in self-reflection, self-awareness, which then leads to close-mindedness, don't you think?
Rob Johnson: Well, absolutely. And the important part of that is, I mean, the self-awareness, I mean, you know how I feel about self-awareness, and I know how you do as well. And if you're an executive that doesn't have self-awareness, just think about all the opportunities that you're missing. And the one thing I really liked about the article that we're referencing here today from HBR is when they're talking about certainty, they say certainty, it feels efficient because it creates clarity, right? But what it's also saying is because you as the idea generator, perhaps, are so certain that this is the direction or the way the conversation should unfold, you're closing off other conversations that are going to really perhaps generate breakthrough ideas. So you're saying, "I know this is the right way to go. This is the way we should do it," and other people are like, "Well, I had a different idea," and you may never hear those ideas. And that is the problem with certainty.
Eileen Rochford: Correct! There's one other point, or it's not really a point, but I just want to say, I'm going to guess that most of us think, we are self-aware, we reflect, we're not that person who's walking into these conversations dug in and wholly vested in our own certainty, "That's not me!" Well, McKinsey did a survey, and this was in a Quartz leadership newsletter very recently, McKinsey did a huge survey. This was of like 10,000 leaders who are in higher-level management positions, and it found that very few spent meaningful time examining whether their own assumptions are truly right. And just food for thought. So that's 10,000 people, hardly any of them spend any time in that self-reflection zone, you know, that yields self-awareness. So...
Rob Johnson: And we've referenced this several times, too. How many times do you hear an executive say, "Well, I ask questions, but I already know the answers to them." It's like, not if you're asking the right ones. And that means you're closing off a potential avenue for idea generation, and that is a shame.
Eileen Rochford: 100%.
Rob Johnson: So, the next one that we want to talk about here is inconsistency. So that is the divide between what leaders say and what they do, especially... so when things are fine, that's great. When things are a little bit dicier, when you're under pressure, that's when it really shows up. So inconsistency is one of the other landmines that everybody should be watching out for.
Eileen Rochford: Definitely. What does inconsistency look like in your experience, Rob? When you see it, what's happening?
Rob Johnson: Well, the thing that I just said, it starts with that. It starts with, "Do as I say, not as I do," or "I say we're going to do X, Y, and Z, but we're doing A, B, and C." So that to me is, "Okay, here's our plan," but then when you see it in action, it doesn't look anything like the words that came out of somebody's mouth. That inconsistency can derail a project immediately. And to me, that's what it looks like, and that's when it's the most obvious, and I think that's when it's very damaging.
Eileen Rochford: I agree. What I tend to see when... in this whole point, it's... this happens especially when people are under pressure, leaders and everyone else. What I tend to see is processes that are inherent to how an organization works, things like, we use a project management system, everything... nothing exists if it isn't within our project management system, Asana, essentially is what we use. Some people use Monday, others, you know, there's several versions out there. And within our project management system, there are templates for every single type of project that we undertake, and that is engineered specifically to yield consistency and, not just efficiency, of course it does, but it's really about consistency because, you know, we know through proven methods the right steps to take to get the best outcome for clients. Well, guess what? I see when there's pressure, when there's a huge influx of deadlines on top of what we had been forecasting for and staffing for, what will happen, and I do this too, is we'll give ourselves an excuse and take a shortcut to those templated approaches and basically all the steps within our processes that make sure balls don't get dropped, and all the things that a templated process approach helps support in quality falls away because we're making excuses, "I'm too pressured, I don't have enough time in this day." But when that was happening, and when I've gotten to a place of self-reflection realizing I set the tone, I can't do that, I have to live within the project management system no matter whether I'm traveling, don't have access to a computer, fewer hours in my day, whatever it is, I still have to do it, always, no question. And when I flipped that switch in my own brain, the whole rest of my team stopped doing it, too.
Rob Johnson: Well, you just made an excellent point, because in the article, it says... Inconsistency is so dangerous because employees pay far more attention to what leaders do than what they say. So if you say, "Here's our project management system in Asana, here's the template for how we do projects so we have uniformity," which makes perfect sense, and then all of a sudden under pressure, somebody on your team or you might revert back to something that is comfortable for you even though it may not be part of the prescribed project management system, that's where the trouble lies, because you think about, "Well, I have certain habits, and some habits are good, and maybe some of them aren't good." But the reason you have it right there is because you want to have The Harbinger Group have a general consistency in the way that you deliver, the way that you conduct and deliver your work, correct?
Eileen Rochford: Yes, absolutely! Yeah, leader sets the tone for sure. That's what that's about. It's also about leaders saying, "We're all in a tough situation right now, but the last thing we should do is deviate from our norms in any process-related way, because that's actually going to lead to much bigger problems." So, double down on the process. Okay, then the third landmine, that one is called emotional reactivity, basically the reality that people respond differently and sometimes very intensely to certain events. What are the dangers of allowing emotional reactivity to come into your team? What do you think, Rob, what have you seen?
Rob Johnson: Well, I think emotion is natural, so you're not going to get rid of emotion entirely, and you want to have people that have that sort of empathy that exhibit those traits. But I will also say that getting overly emotional about anything in business is always a red flag in my opinion. And so I really try to measure that, understanding that people have humanity, understanding that people are going to react differently to the exact same situation or interpersonal interaction. So I respect that, but I also try to say, "All right, self-awareness, put yourself in their shoes," that sort of thing, and I try not to react emotionally. The other thing, too, is if people react emotionally to something in your office, I'm always the one that would like to tamp it down a little bit because I think being calm and level-headed is probably the right way to approach it. And I had a situation yesterday where there was a moment of disrespect from an outside party with one of my clients, and everybody got really emotional about it, and I was not pleased the way what was done or said, and I tried to go around and calm everybody down, and try to, "Let me hear your side. What happened? Tell me what's going on," and just try to show care, show respect, and not make it more emotional than it already was, because the emotional component to it got out of control.
Eileen Rochford: Wow, and did that happen really fast?
Rob Johnson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I started getting texts, and I wasn't even around for any of this interaction, and I was like, "Well, that's unacceptable," and people were very emotional about it, and I'm not saying they shouldn't have been. If I'd been in that situation, I might have been the same way, but it was my... I felt like it was my role to sort of try to not take the emotion out of it, but try to address it and acknowledge it in a way that was calming, that was respectful, that showed care.
Eileen Rochford: And it is your role to diffuse situations like that, for sure. It's often really hard to be able, I guess, to diffuse when you weren't present to hear exactly what happened. That adds a whole additional level of complexity to the situation.
Rob Johnson: Yeah, it can escalate quickly, as you know. So what would you say about this whole emotional reactivity thing, because I'm sure it's something you have to deal with on a regular basis as well?
Eileen Rochford: It's easily the hardest thing that I deal with and have dealt with in my entire career, always, for me. Because I tend to be a pretty passionate, I mean not emotional, but I feel deeply, I take things really seriously, and those are good qualities, particularly commitment to quality of work, doing good by our clients. When I get emotional is when I feel like we haven't been given all the information maybe, or people I work with, whether clients or otherwise, had all the information they needed to be able to follow through on something that was important and it didn't happen, and that reflects poorly on us and it impacts the value of the outcomes that we generate, things like that. And learning to just gather facts first, examine, evaluate, consider, and then map a plan forward... I mean, it took me years and years and years to get decent at doing that, yeah. So, I empathize with everybody who's listening who has similar challenges. But it's obviously worth the time and effort because no one wants to hire a hothead, that's the bottom line.
Rob Johnson: No. And the situation I was referring to a second ago, it's still in process, which is I told people I would run it up the flagpole with the appropriate authorities. We were also very busy with the task at hand that day, so there was not time to discuss it till hours later, which I also thought was good because it let everybody cool down, because people were pretty hot about it. So they got to cool down, and then I was able to go around and say, "Tell me what happened from your perspective. Tell me what happened. Tell me what happened." And then somebody would say something, and I'd say, "You can't do that."
Eileen Rochford: Yeah. Yeah, it's tough.
Rob Johnson: Being kind, I was being kind to them. We talk about that, nice versus kind. I was being kind. You've developed a relationship with somebody enough where you can say, "You can't do that." And so anyway, this has not been resolved yet, by this airing it will be, but at the current time it hasn't, so it's a work in progress.
Eileen Rochford: Well, best of luck with that. I hope it all works out. Oh my gosh, we only have one more!
Rob Johnson: We do. But then we have some of the solutions, too, so we've got a few things.
Eileen Rochford: Okay, let's go!
Rob Johnson: Okay, so the final one... I'm sorry, that's justification, that's spending time defending your position rather than examining it critically. So you're so busy justifying what you did, you didn't take the time to say, "Was that really the best thing?" And how does that manifest itself with you?
Eileen Rochford: Yeah, and it's so closely tied to certainty, don't you think? Justification versus exploration can be such a waste of time and energy in my opinion. So, rather than dig in in an entrenched position, listening for possibilities of other options that are presented, other perspectives that are examined, it always yields a better final decision, final product, final outcome in nearly every situation. And sometimes, just that process of listening to all of the other options in and of itself can end up being the justification for your position. But you have to let it play through, you know? Everyone is going to reject your thinking if you consistently double down and find every possible way to justify the option that you walked in the door wanting to implement. That becomes an individual winning mentality, and that is the antithesis of a team. So just think about how negatively that impacts all of the culture that you're trying to create, and just the positivity dynamics that you need on your team for sustained success.
Rob Johnson: That's a great point that you made, and I love what they put at the very end of this part in the article: "Justification transforms moments of potential growth into cycles of defensiveness. It turns curiosity into certainty, and accountability into blame." So you sit there, somebody asks you a question, or you're explaining a decision you made, and you get defensive because you want to be right, or whatever your reason is, as opposed to opening up the possibility that there are other points of view out there that might be equally as good, or things that you should at the very least explore. So if you're going to die on that proverbial hill, man, it's going to be, you're going to be alone. It's going to be a lonely one.
Eileen Rochford: Yes, it is, almost every time! Yep. Because new ideas are at a minimum built to your own idea potentially. So just think of it that way instead of being hurdles standing in your way, you can turn them into builds. So that's a good mindset to have.
Rob Johnson: Absolutely.
Eileen Rochford: All right. Before we wrap up this awesome discussion, we're going to leave you guys with some actionable items, some solutions if you will, to the various issues that were raised in this HBR article. And in this case, the authors have six ways to diffuse those landmines:
Rob, what were your favorites from the list?
Rob Johnson: I would say, well, because we mentioned it multiple times now, self-awareness—boom, that should just be a layup. There it is. But the other ones on this list—and they're all good, don't get me wrong—I would say return to respect, because in a respectful environment and on a respectful team, everybody feels valued. They feel like their voice, even if you don't act on somebody's idea, they know their ideas are heard, and there is a general respect. And the teams that have that respect get a lot more done than those who are working in silos, as you mentioned earlier, those who feel like "my voice isn't heard," they feel stifled. So that's an important one, the return to respect. And then turning differences into action. The way I read that is, I'm a solution-based person, so anybody can come up to me and say, "Oh, here's a problem, here's a problem," and then you might have to look at the problem and say, "Well, how did that happen? Why did that happen? How do we make sure it doesn't happen again?" I want to come up with solutions. So those differences that you might have with somebody, or bad news, or whatever the case is, turn those differences into action. Be a solution-based person as opposed to "here are all the reasons that we can't get it done because we don't agree on X, Y, or Z" or "we're not aligned on a specific issue." So for me, those are probably the two most important things on here. What do you say about that?
Eileen Rochford: Well, I'll just build on your last mention of turning differences into action, which I totally love. It's such a rallying cry for everybody, because everyone can do that. I recently read a piece on LinkedIn, and I loved it, because it talked about the word "intrapreneur" that they had in air quotes "invented." And the concept is that people inside of organizations, everyone can be an intrapreneur, which is essentially a problem solver who identifies opportunities and takes action. So intrapreneur, everybody!
Rob Johnson: I love that. I think that's outstanding, and I'm glad that you were able to define it. That makes perfect sense, because if you're sitting there and you're part of a team, and you work at a corporation, you're like, "Where do I fit in?" And if you think about it in those terms, all of a sudden you realize, "Hey, I can have some impact here." That's empowering.
Eileen Rochford: Yep, everybody can! It's genuinely a mindset, and it's about finding the tools. The self-awareness point that you raised, the tools that I'm using right now, because I really want to be self-aware more so... I've been working on it for years and years and years, but I've mentioned this before on the show, it's a big thing that I've been paying a lot of attention to. And one way that I'm doing this—I'm not sure that I've mentioned this before, but if I have, I apologize listeners—it's asking specific questions. So everybody asks clients or colleagues, people you manage, "So, tell me how you feel, what's going on?" Vague questions when it comes to sharing observations and things. It happens all the time, and it's so futile. So I've been researching and looking up different tools for asking specific questions, and I've been trying questions like, "How do I hold you back?" or "How have we as an agency held you back from doing something that could have led you to a higher plane? Tell me more about that."
And what did I learn? Oh my gosh, so much! Like, "Well, you revise things five or six times, and if you could be more thoughtful and really settle on what you want sooner, then I could create a better product, and we could get where we need to go and meet the deadlines." Things like that. Like, okay, yeah, I definitely have that perfectionist tendency. That's feedback I got a year or two ago, and I've definitely been working on that. I ask questions like, "What should I stop doing?" And we ask clients, "What should we stop doing?" And one of the things we learned recently was, "You guys are doing great, you know us really well, we don't need to have meetings every single week. We need insights from you weekly in an actionable form, and to keep us on the rails, but honestly, once or twice a month for deep dives, status, feedback, information gathering type longer-form meetings, that's all we need." Which was awesome, because that freed up tons of time for us to do other things.
Rob Johnson: And all clients are different, because I'm sure if they said, "We want to stay on this meeting cadence," you would be like, "We're going to do it," but all clients are different, and they respond differently to the information that you're sharing with them, so that's a good note.
Eileen Rochford: Yeah. So the lesson here is: work on some more specific, pointed questions that are not going to result in a yes or no response, that will result in excellent feedback.
Rob Johnson: Well, and I can relate to that, because back in July at the Executive's Club book talk for Over-Communicate when you were interviewing me, you're like, "Do you want to see the questions in advance?" I'm like, "No." And you were asking very specific questions, so you're already putting this into practice. This is real! I can confirm that!
Eileen Rochford: Yes! Getting better at asking pointed questions that result in excellent feedback, yeah.
Rob Johnson: It's working! It's working.
Eileen Rochford: Thanks! Work in progress. All right, so that covers it for the topic today. We thank you all for listening. I'm Eileen Rochford, and if you would like to comment on our "Can You Hear Me?" podcast, maybe even suggest a topic, you can contact us through a number of ways. We've got the LinkedIn page for our podcast, we've got an awesome newsletter as well that we encourage you to sign up for, we'll give links to that in the show notes as well, also we do have an awesome website now which we'll include in the show notes, too.
Rob Johnson: Yes, canyouhearmepod.beam.ly. That's the podcast website. And I'm Rob Johnson. If you like what you heard, please consider giving "Can You Hear Me?" a positive review wherever you get your podcasts, such as Apple or Spotify. It helps other listeners find the podcast, and we do thank you for listening.
Eileen Rochford: Okay guys, take care.